To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

I agree bananas

"It's offensive because you liken believing in god to having an imaginary friend"

In what way is believing in god different from having an imaginary friend?

A virgin cannot have a baby

Well it does depend on the definition, there are women who have given birth and still have an intact hymen.

But in the general terms you are right, it doesn't happen outside religious texts/stories where it is surprisingly common.

And if all these amazing things and miracles happened then, how come not a single one has happened since?

Can I just add to that, why does God hate amputees? One of my friends keeps trying to get me to go to a church that does faith healing. I know these churches claim to heal all sorts of things, but I have not heard of an amputee's limbs being restored.

because I and millions of others don't believe he is "imaginary"
If you think that then that's fine. I don't know how to articulate myself here....I just find it unnecessary.

its like you need to gratify your own opinions at the expense of others.

So why does your belief that he isn't imaginary more important than my belief that he is? Why does faith trump all?

Bananas, but what you believe in IS imaginary. The very definition of imaginary is 'having existence only in the imagination'. Religious belief is using one's imagination in a certain way. You are making, or allowing, your mind to imagine that something exists that there is absolutely no proof for. This same process is the same in children believing in fairies, Santa, ghosts, whatever, as it is in adults believing in God and other things. It is the very same process that children use to believe in things, including God, that continues in some people that makes them continue to believe in God.

Beliefs and feelings are 100% subjective. They cannot be proven to be true or real. To ask anyone to accept something that you imagine or feel as fact is totally unrealistic, very immature and actually incredibly egotistical.

Of course you have the right to believe that certain feelings you have are to do with God. I defend that right for you totally. Do I have to believe it too? Of course not. I also do not have to respect what it takes to be religious. Blindly trusting is something negative and undesirable, in my opinion, it's not a great quality in an adult. Religious people always present this as one of the more honourable and lovely aspects of belief, whereas I just think "why are you boasting about being gullible and suspending your intelligence?".

And pointing out facts about Biblical content, and about the nature of belief is not trying to make people look like idiots, or feel stupid. If FACTS make them feel like this, then they need to address their beliefs or their self-esteem. People cannot be asked not to set out facts and truth in order to not potentially offend people whose lives revolve around avoiding said facts. That is outrageous! It's the privilege that I and others have discussed.

God doesn't seem to be particularly keen on people with tooth decay or short sight either. Like most faith healers, he specialises in curing non specific, vague feelings of unhappiness and self diagnosed and/or limited illnesses.

I also meant to add: in what universe should belief trump facts and logic?! Demanding respect for believing in something imaginary (because it is) at the expense of the views of others is the ultimate in offensiveness and having your views gratifed at the expense of others!

If belivers want people to stop calling God imaginary, or their beliefs delusions, all they have to do is offer proof, as I said.

But, oh! the whole point of belief is deliberately avoiding proof. Handy, that

Terry Pratchett said that belief in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas trains children to believe in invisible concepts (as an atheist, he meant big concepts like justice, rather than God).

_

"All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”
? Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

Bananas, why do you care what non-believers say about your faith? If you think you have an imaginary friend who's going to give you pie in the sky when you die, then surely you win, and it's me and my non-believing friends who lose out? So why does it matter what we say about your credulity?

If you think you have an imaginary friend who's going to give you pie in the sky when you die, then surely you win, and it's me and my non-believing friends who lose out?

Indeed. Christian faith can't be very fulfilling if the mere hint of a suggestion that people are laughing at you cuts you to the core. And I thought that Christians were quite keen on being martyred, too, so that a few people just think they're gullible doesn't really seem too much to endure.

That's the point. I don't think it does....but I also don't think you need to say such rude things. You could pick a religion and study its scriptures till you know them by heart and still not agree with them. I guess you have to experience the religion first hand and feel the presence of god and again there is no recipe to make that happen. It is just something that happens. Like I said this can not be measured so can not be proven. I get that to some it is too much and too far fetched but I have been through so many things that have been miraculous that I stand firm in my beliefs.
I know people who have been through difficult times who would have probably had a nervous breakdown had they not had their faith and the church to support them. Whether god exists or not it has many positive effects on those who trust in it.

I have never asked anyone to believe what I do. I would never do that. I was just trying to explain my perspective. I have not once been rude or disrespectful to any of your views. I have objected to your choice of words which you have continued to use.
"blindingly trusting" doesn't mean you surrender any intelligence you had....people aren't gullible or stupid.

If I was to find out tomorrow that god defiantly didn't exist, I wouldn't feel foolish or stupid or tricked. I pray and my prayers are answered, perhaps that is just my brain working through todays problems and solving them tomorrow. Perhaps it gives me a positive perspective to deal with tomorrows problems and a positive energy to fight hardship. I wouldn't change my behaviour because this works for me. Life is hard. Anything that makes it easier is a blessing!

Like I said I feel the presence of god. I feel him calling me and guiding me. Might sound like tosh to you but it does you no harm if I follow this and makes me a better person.

I think I'm going to leave this thread now. My initial request was that people stop and think of the language that they were using and how insulting that could be to anyone who chooses to have a faith. No one has really listened. You all keep claiming you have respect for those who hold a faith then calling them names in the next sentence. I have always been brought up to respect others, so I will respectfully leave you with your opinions.

"I think I'm going to leave this thread now. My initial request was that people stop and think of the language that they were using and how insulting that could be to anyone who chooses to have a faith. No one has really listened. You all keep claiming you have respect for those who hold a faith then calling them names in the next sentence. I have always been brought up to respect others, so I will respectfully leave you with your opinions."

I don't thing anyone has called anyone names, have they? And I have listened very hard to what you've said. I understand how religion can be a comfort for some people, and, obviously, people can believe what they want to so long as it doesn't intrude on anyone else's life. I still don't understand, however, why belief trumps non belief. If I thought in those terms I would take great comfort from the fact that there is not a supreme being who could answer my prayer or help me in a time of danger or crisis but chooses not to. I am not offended by people saying there is a god, why are you offended by people saying there isn't?

And, for what it's worth, I do think leaving the thread is a strange decision. If people don't understand you, it is, up to a point, their fault. But it could also mean that you haven't explained as clearly as you could. Why not have another go? I don't think there are any of the "go for the jugular" types on either side on this thread........

But no-one is telling you that you can't believe that you feel the presence of God, Bananas. No-one is telling you that you can't call those feelings God, or benefit from them. No-one is trying to stop you. No-one wants you to change or stop.

People are just saying that they don't believe in God, or that they would find different explanations for what believers call religious experiences, or that they want to look factually and critically and objectively at religious texts and history. how is any of that disrespectful?! Respect for having beliefs is different from respecting the beliefs themselves. No-once can demand or expect that their beliefs are automatically respected. You are asking for special privilege for beliefs you hold that cannot be proven. You must be able to see, if not admit, that that is almost narcissistic, never mind unrealistic and unfair. You keep saying you respect the views of others, but you are actually asking others to not view theirs, or to modify or censor theirs in order to not challenge yours in any way. That's the opposite of respect.

And I would like an explanation of what blindingly trusting means, if it does not involve being gullible or suspending intelligence. It is impossible to unquestioningly trust whilst still utilising critical and logical perspective. The two are incompatible.

Curlew - because flouncing is the only choice left to someone who cannot participate in an argument because it's becoming apparent that they can't back up their ideas, and cannot handle having them challenged, especially when the arguments behind the challenge is strong.

I've always found the role of Thomas in the story of Jesus very disconcerting.

I haven't flounced and I know no one is telling me what I can and cant believe, . I just felt this debate was getting a bit pointless. I'm not in the slightest bot offended that you do not believe in god. Why would I be offended? I have said all along that I respect everyone's views whatever they be. I am just annoyed at the words being used.

As for name calling, stupid and gullible have both been used amongst others. Scroll back. There are loads! It is disrespectful to call someone stupid because the choose to believe in a god. That is the only point I have tried to press on here.
I haven't tried to push any of my religious beliefs on any of you, I have explained them as I see them so that you can understand what I believe in.
As I said the only thing I have tried to alter is your use of language. I don't think that means that I have a lack of respect for you.
"I understand how religion can be a comfort for some people, and, obviously, people can believe what they want to so long as it doesn't intrude on anyone else's life" I agree totally with you there.

I don't think that belief trumps non belief....they are both equal. it all stems back to your use of language. That's is all I was trying to point out. Yes I am asking you to censor your language....I don't see anything wrong with that. Why would you want to repeatedly use words in a context that are offensive?

anybags that's not the case at all....it was more so that I didn't really feel anyone was listening to my opinion which is of course your own choice and it was a bit pointless for me to continue. Its not flouncing at all. I have stuff I need to get on with and didn't want to get dragged any further into this debate. instead of commenting and not returning for you to then speculate that it was because the stupid Christian had nothing else to fight her corner with.

like I said, my only issue within this thread has been the name calling. Deny it all you like but all you need do is look back over the previous posts and see that there are quite a few there! I really am going now otherwise my children are going to turn into cannibals!

But you haven't said what language you want people to use. "Imaginary friend" is offensive. So what can I say?

It is insulting because it is intended to be insulting. Lots of people are able to discuss belief without being offensive. Those who are offensive are so because they wish to offend.

And nobody has said "stupid Christian"

Nothing like attacking language to shut down debate.......

I don't knock on people's doors and tell them Santa is not real. Nor do I tell them that god is not real. I wish religious people would have the same courtesy.

On threads discussing religion I will say that your god is not real because that's what we are talking about.

As for suggesting that belief in fairies is the same as belief in god, of course it is. The main reason I do that comparison though is to make the point that lack of evidence for the existence of something is not evidence it exists.

Sometimes I say fairies and other times I might say 'a magic banana that created the world and wants you to worship it'. The point of the comparison is to use a belief that the person I am debating with finds ludicrous.

Also it is revealing that a religious person can be offended by the comparison. No respect there for those who believe in fairies when they say "of course fairies are not real - don't be stupid".

Dione- so if I say I have absolutely no intention of being insulting by using the expression"imaginary friend" then it's all right? Because it seems to me to be a very useful shorthand when discussing faith.

I'm a card-carrying atheist, but even I can see that "imaginary friend" is a bit offensive. Only young children (usually) have imaginary friends. It's infantilising. Surely there is a better term?

Bananas I don't think anyone was name calling. Several people, including me, have asked why it's not only the right to hold a faith which should be respected, but also the beliefs themselves. Curlew put this succinctly in several of her posts.