To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

The 'feeling' may be the same. The fact is, that an opinion or belief is not the same as a physical characteristic though.

Being disabled is not the same as believing the world is flat.

Being white is not the same as believing that gay people should have fewer rights that straight people.

I can judge someone, think less of someone or dislike someone as a result of their beliefs.

I cannot judge someone, think less of someone or dislike someone as a result of a physical characteristic.

Gosh I haven't made any comment on Islamaphobia on this thread. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

I don't doubt for a second that people mix racism with their views on religion. They shouldn't though, that's my point. They're two different things.

I see Hettie's been showing her ignorance of Islam yet again.

Hettie - C+Ping from an anti-Islamic website which purposely picks and twists the words of the Quran to serve an extremely dubious agenda, does not make you any kind of expert in Islam, just as quoting from Stormfront, wouldn't make you an expert on Judaism.

The idea that you can lecture Muslims on their own religion and expect them to bow to your "superior" knowledge is patronising white saviour nonsense and yet another way in which racism manifests itself through Islamophobia.

Outraged - yes, people shouldn't do lots of things, but they do. Islamophobia does manifest itself through racism, that's just the way it is and Muslims (most of whom are not white) are entitled to call racism and racist terminology as they see it.

Quick poll - Muslim ladies on this thread, hands up if you've ever been told "Go back to your own country" . If you look identifiably Muslim, people will often be identifiably racist towards you, so I think you can understand why we find the "criticising the religion, not a race argument" to ring somewhat hollow.

I didn't say it was down to a physical characteristic, I said it was down to what you are told about who and what you are.

If someone is telling you that you are less than them, is that not insulting?

And ultimately dangerous?

'Islamophobia does manifest itself through racism, that's just the way it is'

I'm sure it does. I haven't mentioned Islamophobia anywhere on this thread. Are you mixing me up with someone else?

'I didn't say it was down to a physical characteristic, I said it was down to what you are told about who and what you are.'

I'm not sure what this has to do with my point, which was simply that comparing someone disliking your views/values/beliefs is in no-way similar to someone disliking the colour of your skin/how big your feet are/how many freckles you have. People are well within their rights to judge you on your beliefs whether these come from religion or not.

'If someone is telling you that you are less than them, is that not insulting?

And ultimately dangerous?'

Yes, but they're entitled to comment negatively on your beliefs, religious or otherwise. That's the difference between physical characteristics (what you are and cannot change) and what you believe/how you behave.

People are perfectly able to say there is no proof for God without having to be sarcastic and mocking and talking about flying spaghetti monsters.

The irony. You don't want your beliefs mocking with the beliefs of others.

There is only one flying spaghetti monster, and his noodly appendage of course.

I am a Catholic well I used to be but I cannot stand religion, yet when my children were small, Jesus ( chose him as we are in a Christian country) was afforded the same mystery and joy that Santa was until my children made their own choice, they were at a Christian school, how awful if I would have passed my dislike onto them at a school where they celebrated Easter and. Christingle and Carol Service. They loved Church when they were small but neither go now and I am happy about that, but that was their choice at about 12 I think.

if you dont believe in god, then why blame god for someone else starting a war in god's name?

Because religion has caused many wars and atrocities (as has greed and other things - I'm not blaming religion for all). You don't need to believe in god to know that religion exists. One is a concept requiring belief, the other is a tangible force, they are quite different things.

It is man who has caused wars, in the name of religion but generally the real reason is power and greed.

I disagree that it is power and greed rather than a firm belief that their religion is the only right one.

I have respect for the beliefs of others whether I agree with them or not. Sadly not everyone takes this view.

the bible has a fair few historical events in it which we know happened. It has historical figures who we know existed.

So what? We have massive amounts of evidence of the first world war taking place, of George IV having had an extended period as Prince of Wales and of Queen Elizabeth I being monarch of England. That doesn't mean that Blackadder is a real person, or that any of the events portrayed in it happened.

I'm relatively content with the evidence that the second world war took place, and that in countries under or threatened with occupation there were organisations built by the government or government-in-exile which attempts to resist invasion. People writing histories of that would be advised to ignore both Dad's Army and 'Allo 'Allo as primary evidence.

And so on.

So what does having respect for the beliefs of others mean? How does it manifest itself? If somebody says something that I profoundly disagree with do I have to accept it if they say it's because of their faith? Does the faith card trump all?

I have respect for the beliefs of others whether I agree with them or not.

I don't respect people who are holocaust denying neo-nazis who think that Jews should be murdered. Do you?

I find it odd that some types of atheists blame people's shortcomings on a god that they don't believe exists.

What an embarrassing attempt at a counter argument.

Indeed, cheval.

it doesn't matter that Hazelmary Bull's God doesn't exist. The Bulls believe in a spiteful, hateful, discriminating God, and that's all that matters. The God doesn't exist; the belief in it, and the foul behaviour that stems from that belief, does.

The Church of England this week published the Pilling Report, in which it's outlined how they're going to have a "facilitated discussion" over the next two years to see if they can agree to hate gays a little bit less. They're not suggesting that gays should be treated equally, of course (I mean, next they'll be suggesting that blacks can vote or women can think or something equally absurd) but just that they rein back the hatred a bit (for example, Pilling does suggest, without wishing to offend anyone, that killing people for being gay might be something to consider stopping doing).

The God behind this sort of vile discrimination doesn't exist. It's the belief in their imaginary God that makes people vile nonetheless.

"I find it odd that some types of atheists blame people's shortcomings on a god that they don't believe exists."

A couple of points here. There aren't different types of atheist. Being an atheist means that you don't believe in god or gods. Nothing more, nothing less. So you are either an atheist or not.

I can attribute others "shortcomings" to their god because they believe in that God , and that belief informs their actions. Whether or not I believe in that god is irrelevant. They do, and they behave accordingly and

My atheism has absolutely nothing to do with my moral compass, or my political beliefs or my behaviour or anything except whether or not I believe in God. I think this is a common problem with discussions like this. People think that atheism is like a religion. It isn't. It begins and ends with not believing there is a a God. No rules, code or behaviours attached.

Saying religious scriptures are made up stories is a bit of a joke too. I have read very little of the quran so can not pass much comment on that, but the bible has a fair few historical events in it which we know happened. It has historical figures who we know existed. Ok those stories might be embellished to suit the religion but some of it must also be true.

Name one.

The historical Herod did not order a census or murder children, so yes he existed at the right time but that's as far as it goes.

The family trees of Jesus are different in different books.

There is no evidence that the entire world flooded or that the sun 'stood still'.

SGB is absolutely spot-on. As usual. And if believers wants others to not refer to their particular deity as imaginary then all they have to do is provide even a tiny bit of proof. Saying that The Bible, or other religious texts, say a deity exists is not enough. It is humiliatingly laughable to offer that as proof enough or reason to believe. I don't believe that Orcs and elves and Hobbits exist because I read the Lord of The Rings trilogy. And much of it is based on Norse mythology and history, so. You could use the argument about it having some historical basis.

Does it feel offensive and ludicrous to Christians to have it suggested to them that Hobbits are believable just because LOTR says so? Because that's what it feels like to Atheists for religious believers to just go "the bible/Qu'ran/whatever says so" as their only 'proof' of their belief.

And all the stories in the Bible can be broken down roughly into these categories:

1. Rules, laws, ideas and morality that was relevant and pertinent only to the region and era in which they were originally included in the initial stages of the various texts that eventually became the Bible. Some of this is downright abhorrent nowadays - see treatment of rape, for example.
2. Stuff that was made up to try to explain things, particularly biology or natural occurences, because they had no scientific way to work them out any better.
3. Stuff that was made up to try to explain things that was pushing an agenda onto people - this covers most of the all the other categories too. Mainly to keep rich men in power (the world hasn't changed much there).
4. Fictional stories, fairy tales, cautionary tales.
5. Hearsay, chinese whispers, rumours, gossip, popular misconceptions, etc., of the day.

The fact that real historical figures and events figure in some stories in the Bible mean bugger-all. It is a childish argument to suggest this gives them extra credence. Storytellers have always woven in facts with their fiction, in order to give their stories more weight, or to give what we would call a 'shout-out', or just for fun. Dr Who features real historical figures and events, but it doesn't make me believe cybermen.

Also, many of the historical figures and events used were not at all contemporaneous - revealing the proven fact that the Bible was an ongoing work with an agenda, with innumerous contributors and authors, for absolutely ages, centuries. And many figures are lied about, ie Herod, because of contributor's own bias. It's like taking the opinion pieces in the Daily Mail as holy truth.

Finally, many of the things featured in the Bible can be proven to be wholly scientifically impossible or untrue. A woman cannot be made from a man's rib. Seas cannot part and then come back together. A virgin cannot have a baby - and, moreover, a woman could not have a male baby in that instance because her body contains zero XY genetic material to create him from. The path of the star that supposedly guided the Three Wise Men has long been proven to just not have happened in that geographical area at that time, and certainly not at the seasonal time it was supposed to have happened. The Noah's Ark flood was based on a real event, but is ruined with the absolute horseshit about getting every animal on earth on a wooden boat and the hyperbolic enormity of the extent of the flood.

And if all these amazing things and miracles happened then, how come not a single one has happened since? In the Bible, they pre and post date the life of Jesus, so he can't be used as the reason. The answer is simple: they did not happen, none of it is true.

I respect anyone's right to believe what they want. I refuse to believe the content of their belief, especially when there is zero evidence for any of it. The time for privilege just because you believe in the supernatural is over. If so many people question religious belief and find it hard to respect, ridiculous, silly, bizarre, immoral, etc., then believers have to, at some point, even if just in the early hours of the morning in their own minds, ask why this is. It can't just be because there are hoardes of nasty, spiteful, disrespectful killjoys about...

Oh here we go. I can't dislike Islam without being racist apparently. I've also said I dislike Christianity, funny how that doesn't get turned into something else.

It's extremely shoddy when you have to protect Islam by calling racism to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I dislike all organised religion. Nothing to do with race, skin colour or any other characteristic.

AnyBag It's offensive because you liken believing in god to having an imaginary friend. It's mocking, degrading.....I could carry on. If you don't like it or agree with it that's fine I respect your decision but using language like that is unnecessary.
There are parts of other religions that I don't understand but I would never dare tell that person they were stupid for believing in it. I have my opinion and I voice it regularly but not at the expense of others. Trying to make someone look like an idiot to prove your point is IMO just nasty.
Personally for me religion is far more than what I read in biblical scriptures and more about the support and love I get from the people around me and the god I trust in.
There have been times where I have called upon god and I feel he has answered and provided. I have felt a guiding presence in my life when I have felt lost. Whether you choose to believe that or not is your own business and I have the politeness to respect your views. It is not something I can prove or measure. It is just a feeling I have felt in my life.

I have always thought religion would be rather pointless if it could be proved. To believe in a god is to take a leap of faith and trust.