To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

Surely there is a better term?

Tell us, then.

A lot of the language of offence that the religious trot out starts from the position that describing imaginary things as imaginary is offensive to them. They do this because they want to shift the narrative, to imply that there is a qualitative difference between belief in God and belief in, say, the Loch Ness Monster. They want to be able to put clear blue water between their evidence-free beliefs, which are obviously entirely rational and deserving of being tip-toed around, and the real crazies who believe in alien abductions.

Of course, were evidence to alien abductions to surface, the rational world would continue unscathed. There's no evidence that aliens are abducting semi-psychotic mid-Westerners with limited education, but it wouldn't be fundamentally implausible for such a thing to happen, or cause us to re-examine our entire system of knowledge, were such a thing to happen. So actually, as evidence-free assertions go, "I have daily communication with an omnipotent being in the sky" and "I was abducted by green aliens who did bizarre sexual things to me after I had been out drinking" aren't comparable, because the latter is substantially more likely (in the hierarchy of things that aren't likely, of course).

When the religious provide a single coherent piece of evidence that one word of their basis thesis about "God" is true, then the word "imaginary" ceases to be the best one to use. But at the moment, "God" is as real as Harry Potter: there's a book about him, too.

BackOnlyBriefly raises a good point. What believers fail, or do not want to understand, is that to non-believers, believing in God is nor more silly or respectable, whichever way you choose to describe it, than believing in fairies, Scientology, the Magic Faraway Tree, or whatever. Religious people get offended at being asked to accept that ideas they find silly or unbelievable are equally as valid and realistic as their own, yet expect everyone else to do exactly that about their beliefs. AND I can prove everything I believe in, yet the expression of that is offensive, is it? How does that make sense, logically or morally?!

Just because there is a cultural precedent for Christianity (or monotheistic religion) does not mean that belief in it gets some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card of privilege when being placed on a scale of unbelievability or nonsense.

Anything that cannot be proven, that is imaginary - and ALL belief without fact is imaginary, it makes believers look even worse to try to argue against dictionary definitions in order to scrape some sort of defence together - is equally silly to people who cannot make their minds do whatever it is believers do to suspend rational critical thought. Which again, is what has to happen to believe in something invisible and unprovable. It is not an insult to accurately describe the process. If someone feels insulted by a description of what blind faith is, then perhaps they ought to look at how insulting it was for them to have been lied to so much and so often as a child about the supernatural, that as an adult, they believe in the imaginary, and use belief processes of children in order to do so.

As has been previously said that for some people, faith plays a huge role when there is turmoil in life. Any religious belief should not be mocked as cheap point scoring.

On a personal level, i am a muslim and God's existence is proven by the existence of the quran. The quran is not the work of man.

Any religious belief should not be mocked as cheap point scoring.

Scientology: discuss.

And pointing out facts about Biblical content, and about the nature of belief is not trying to make people look like idiots, or feel stupid. If FACTS make them feel like this, then they need to address their beliefs or their self-esteem. People cannot be asked not to set out facts and truth in order to not potentially offend people whose lives revolve around avoiding said facts. That is outrageous! It's the privilege that I and others have discussed.

repeating this because it is so well-expressed.

If someone else disagreeing with you is offensive, they are not the one with the problem. Religion bangs on about tolerance, but seems to produce the exact opposite.

friday16 - the irony being, that believers often get offended at the aliens comparison, when there is actually more likelihood that aliens could exist, in some form (although doubtful they'd be like the grey men or blobs of sci-fi). Life, of sorts, has actually been found on other planets, after all.

I don't believe in aliens at all, I hasten to add!

And the alien thing brings up another important point - the experiences that people who say they have been abducted by, or who have made conact with, aliens, are all things that are nuerological, physical, emotional, mental, situational, or a combination of the above, that they have not been able to rationally explain, so have found an explanation in the cultural mythology of aliens and UFOs, etc. When really, scientists, doctors and psychologists can explain all their symptoms and experiences (the most common reason is actually just Night Terrors and other sleep disorders).

In the past, people used to attribute these things to angels, demons, fairies, pixies, spirits of the water, and so on. People use popular frameworks of belief to explain feelings and experiences that feel big or different or downright odd to them. What religious people call praying and having prayers answered is just talking to themselves and using their inner voice, like every human on Earth ever has done, does do, and will do. They are just calling it something religious. The big spiritual feelings they might get when watching a beautiful sunset are the plain old feelings of awe that anyone would get at something lovely to see, and bigger than themselves. But believers say this is God's presence, or God's work, and so on. They choose to see messages and signs or mysterious things where there are none, or which can be explained rationally. All of this is fine, and if it makes people feel better, then I am very happy for them. They just can't expect or demand that anyone else agrees that it had some supernatural or spiritual element, or that they don't look for other explanations.

I find it very odd that people would find facts and reason offensive.

Oh ... so this is what happens on father christmas threads

defuse, could you explain how the Qu'ran is not the work of man? Are you actually explaining that invisible, mystical figures somehow magically wrote it? How? Where?

And can you explain how a book saying someone exists is enough for that to be fact? Because I am pretty sure that Elizabeth Bennett didn't exist, and yet millions of people love that character.

It is stuff like this that totally makes people roll their eyes about religion.
It sounds bizarre and humiliating to hear adults talk like that. It sounds like a toddler insisting that their teddy is real and expecting you to play along. Which I would do with a child, but an adult needs to grow out of that.

Also, context is all. I wouldn't barge onto a prayer thread and start banging on about imaginary friends. But this is a debate thread. The terms of reference are completely different.

I'm still catching up with some of this thread, but I see we have some of those 'but you wouldn't say that about...' posts.

So let me make it clear. There is no difference in believing in fairies, allah, jesus, thor, yahweh or hanuman. I don't dislike one god more than another because they are equally unreal. Only a religious person could think there was a difference.

Defuse I see that you do see a difference. Your quran is true, but as I understand it muslims believe the bible is corrupt and inaccurate and that Jesus wasn't the son of god. Is that about right?

The quran is not the work of man.

Urgh, you know if you find the mocking of religion objectionable, you really should keep views like this to yourself, or at least only express them in the company of like minded people. It's hard for any rational and intelligent person to suppress the urge to correct such nonsense when it is asserted to them.

defuse You're claiming special status for a belief. Why should a religious belief have special status and protection? And don't just say " because", which is essentially what your post is saying.

If I say sorry my belief is the Koran and the bible are very definitely the work of men , which it is, does your belief trump mine?

I've often asked that question Caitlin. Why on earth should my beliefs be seen as lesser just because I don't have some imaginary deity behind them?

oxford i believe that quran is God's word and not man's word because for those who say it is man made, then there is a challenge for them within the quran:

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Messenger, then produce one chapter like it, call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful.”

All you need to meet this challenge are the grammatical rules and the Arabic alphabet. A chapter can comprise of miminum of 3 sentences. Even non muslim scholars accept that this challenge has not been met to this day.

See, the eye rolling would be acceptable, had, say, an atheist risen to the challenge. But to sit on the side, not take up the challenge or fail at the challenge (even with all the professional help in the world) and still be eye rolling is not very grown up either.

I would be happy to be humiliated only if you actually met the challenge. But please dont throw words and attacks without actually meeting or attempting to meet the challenge set.

Firstly it's a circular argument because the book is telling you how to tell if the book is real.

Secondly, What's hard about making a chapter like it?

So because it's a literary exception it's the word of god?

I quote this

^And I'm certain that 'you Muslims' have reached a conclusion regarding the "unique literary form, unique genre, unique rhythm and unique eloquence" of the Qur'an based upon objective criteria applied to an extensive knowledge, appreciation, and technical understanding of world literature.

Either that or you are just childishly parroting assertions that you have been conditioned to believe must be true even though you don't even fully understand what they mean.

One or the other.

It'd be literally slightly interesting to find out which...

What exactly do you mean by "literary form", "genre", "rhythm", and "eloquence" in the context you used them in?

How is the Qur'an unique in each of these respects? What methods or measurements have you used to ascertain or quantify these criteria in comparison to other literature?

I look forward to being educated^

backonbriefly get all the expert help in the world an go do it. If it really is man made, then you will succeed.

There are many things in this world that cannot be reproduced, or cracked - like equations and codes. This doesn't make them the work of god.

I wrote a religious book this morning. Everything in it is true. The way you can tell it is true is that on page 1 it says "this is true".

Page 2 just says "All religion is false"

Page 3 says "Don't believe anything a book says"

:)

Quoting scriptures that you think are literary genius doesn't make them the word of god. Otherwise people would worship shakespeare.

defuse I imagine an arabic speaker could knock up a chapter in 20 minutes, but who judges if the new chapter is sufficiently like the others?

That will be the catch yes?

I don't think you can say, believing in this imaginary thing is more or less important than believing in that imaginary thing. If people are to be allowed belief in things they cannot touch, see or prove then it counts across the board. Santa stand for sharing, coming together and rejoicing your loved ones. Whats the problem??

Backonbriefly you go get that arabic speaker to get a chapter together...take all the time you need, and i will make sure that the panel comprises of an acceptable balance of muslim and non muslim professionals with years of expertise.