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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

999 replies

Throughthelongnight · 06/12/2013 22:20

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

OP posts:
KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 16:10

Crescent - but children are supposed to grow out of santa.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 16:10

You don't have to answer my question optimist that is up to you. However I will have to assume you are dodging answering.
And I can guesx why.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 16:14

Anyway, I realise now that muslims are not really allowed to be friends with the likes of me:
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

HettiePetal · 09/12/2013 16:32

if its the God of abraham is a load of bollocks based on scientific materialism, then thats at least, consistent, but to say santa claus is real whereas all other supernatural figures are doubtful, is i think, the pushing of commercial materialism to unite all children on

100% agree.

crescentmoon · 09/12/2013 16:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 16:46

I'd also encourage children to believe in fairies and anything else that gives their childhood a bit of magic.
I would really have a problem with an adult who still believed in them.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 17:00

Dione what part didn't you understand?

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 17:00

Kitten I didnt realise you were a jew or christian. By thee way, I have never understood that verse as well as I do now after reading about people like you having muslim friends. Whats that phrase. If you have friends like these who needs enemies. Grin Thats a perfect example of a verse, where there is a variety of differences in interpretation on it. The evidence. Well loads of muslims are friends with christians and jews. Either we are ignoring it completely or the interpretation (tafsir) of it is not meant to be literal.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 17:03

Who decides if it is not literal? Individual muslims or clerics?

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:06

kittens
"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

That is just what it says about 'people of the book', What it says about unbelievers not of the 'book' is far worse.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:09

I'm apparently worse than a Jew or Christian.

IceBeing · 09/12/2013 17:09

okay if there was an all seeing all loving God out there and he sent an actual human being his message I would expect the VERY FIRST thing out of said profits mouth to be:

"Start treating all human beings with respect. Stop treating women as lesser, stop treating children as property, stop killing people purely for their appearance, beliefs or any other reason. In fact just STOP KILLING."

This doesn't appear to have happened in the case of Islam. So I think either their isn't an all loving God or there is and he doesn't have anything to do with Islam. (The same is true of Christianity of course).

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:11

Ignoring the word of god again. Tut, tut.

IceBeing · 09/12/2013 17:12

I also don't get the moral relativism argument. FGM is the norm in some countries still to this day. Is FGM morally right in these countries?

I would say FGM is morally wrong wherever it happens and however normalized it is.

You can add 'Stop cutting up other peoples genitals' to the list of incredibly amazing things Mohammad could have said but curiously failed to mention.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:12

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..."

He does seem to be quite insistent about it.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:17

Yes. Why can't God just dictate a new, wholly revised edition of the Koran for modern times? With clear meanings and no room for different and nasty interpretations.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:18

Crescent moon - maybe you should tell us the bits of the koran you actually do believe in.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:19

Quite, redshifter. Why can't he send down a new prophet to clear up some of the confusions.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:22

If people have been interpreting the literal word of God so wrong for 1400 years, you would think he would get off his arse to write a sequel or updated version.

Koran 4.5 Vista or something.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:25

I think that most people seem to have the Windows 8 version... I can understand why they are struggling with it.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:33

Reading the Koran now.

I was going to post some verses about how unbelievers should be treated. But their are so many. Saying how muslims should not be friends with unbelievers and how unbelievers will be punished in hell. Not just condoning violence aginst unbelievers but actually instructing it.
This is not just in one verse but many. Over and over and over again. All of them very clear but all being misinterpretd apparently.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:35

Yes. I definitely think there are some serious bugs in the registry.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:42

"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from gods judgement. They shall become fuel for the fire" (3:10)

"Say to the unbelievers: 'You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell - an evil resting place!'" (3:12)

I could go on quotung all night, there are that many similar verses.

But these seemy very unambiguous to me.

Maybe my skill in interpretation is poor.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 17:43

Back I know its difficult to believe since for so long in Europe they considered all other races to be savages incapable of civilisation and intellect, but for the past 1400 years there has been extensive scholarship on the Quran, Islamic theology and its tenets. I know how ludicrous for muslims to try and understand their own religion for themselves.

Thats why its quite ludicrous and a bit amusing how people on this thread quote verses from the Quran and apply their own meanings, totally ignoring 1400 years of islamic scholarship studying the language, the grammer, the historical context, where the particular verse was revealed, the interpretation given by the Prophet Muhammed PBUH, how the early muslims interpreted it, the consensus of muslim scholars on the meaning of the verse and how it relates to other verses in the Quran. You simply ignore all of that detailed study of the meanings, applications and interpretations of all the verses in the Quran and apply your own meanings willy nilly. So its quite easy to dismiss your views. Why should we take your reading of the Quran seriously when that is not the way WE read the Quran and since it is muslims who are practicing the religion how they interpret and view the verses should have some weight I think.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:47

But lots of muslims seem to be as confused as me.