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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

999 replies

Throughthelongnight · 06/12/2013 22:20

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

OP posts:
peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 17:50

As for the Quran saying unbelievers are going to hell well I think it was you or Friday who said earlier that if believers really have faith in their religion why would they get upset if people ridicule them. Well in the same way, why does it bother you if you dont believe its going to happen. I have had people of other faiths tell me to my face I will burn in hell if I dont convert to their religion. I dont get offended I just find it amusing because I dont believe it. Oxford your the expert on this. Doesnt it sound like someone is mentally ill if they get upset about something written in a book that they dont even believe in.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 17:50

Well my question was "Who decides if it is not literal? Individual muslims or clerics?" and your answer is a little vague, but it sounds like it's up to each individual what any of it means, just like with the bible.

So if a muslim decided after prayer and study that a certain passage didn't mean what you said it meant then s/he would be as entitled to that belief as you are to yours?

crescentmoon · 09/12/2013 17:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 17:53

Well Kitten it would be pretty unrealistic to expect all muslims to be experts on the Quran, just as it would be unrealistic to expect all christians to be experts on the bible, or all jews to be experts on torah and so on. Actually how many people do not believe in God and instead say they believe in evolution but yet couldnt explain it to you coherently or would make mistakes in their explanation. It would be nice if all muslims were walking encyclopedias on the Quran but obviously not everyone is going to have access to the type of education needed to be called a scholar of the religion.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 17:53

Why should we take your reading of the Quran seriously when that is not the way WE read the Quran and since it is muslims who are practicing the religion how they interpret and view the verses should have some weight I think.

Exactly, I am giving a lot of weight to how muslims view the verses. And some muslims interpretation is either totally fucked up or the verses are abhorrent to begin with.

Why can't God do a revised edition? One that doesn't take 1400 years of study to come up with many different interpretations. One that everyone can understand.

WHY?

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 17:57

Back no thats definitely not what I said Confused.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 17:57

Peaceful - it's not just a question of ridiculing people though, is it:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 17:58

"Your Honor, my client can't be found guilty of armed bank robbery. When he said "Give me the money or I'll blow your head off" it was metaphor. He was merely offering to recite excruciatingly beautiful poetry which would 'blow their minds'.

"As for the shotgun, he was taking that to be repaired since someone had inadvertently sawn off half the barrel"

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 17:59

peacefuloptimist No? seriously I thought it was. Can you explain then who decides.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 17:59

Uh muslims have no problem understanding it red. If your asking why God doesnt send you your own annotated copy I would take it up with Him. Sometimes I wonder whether your real problem with Islam is that it didnt get Europeanised as Christianity did so its sort of slipped out of your control.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 18:00

Peaceful, not talking about expertise, but radically different interpretations to the ones you guys are proffessing.
A number of muslims throughout the world do believe that non believers should be killed, women are worth less than a man etc etc.
I can see why they believe that, because that's what the koran says.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 18:02

Crescent - so you do believe in all the bits I've been quoting then.
Or not.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 18:03

Doesnt it sound like someone is mentally ill if they get upset about something written in a book that they dont even believe in.

Illogical arguement. It is quite sane to get upset about something written in a book that 1.5 billion people do believe in. And think is the literal word of god. It is quite sane to be frightened by this.

I don't believe in The Lord of the Rings or Mein Kampf, but if I knew that 1.5 billion people believed they were God's work I would be fucking shitting myself.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 18:04

My real problem with islam is that it is violent, intolerant and sexist. That's my real problem.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 18:06

I was told there was no muslim hierarchy, but if there's a group of clerics or scholars that decide that this passage is to be taken literally, and this is poetry, and that one means the opposite of what the actual words say then they are in charge aren't they.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 18:07

Sometimes I wonder whether your real problem with Islam is that it didnt get Europeanised as Christianity did so its sort of slipped out of your control

Well that would be very weird seeing as I am not European like you are.

redshifter · 09/12/2013 18:12

muslims have no problem understanding it

Well if it takes 1400 years of study to truly understand it, I would say that is a little bit of a problem.

And as you said to me that many muslims misunderstand and misinterpret it I would say that there definitely is a problem.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 18:13

I've asked this before, and not got an answer
Can someone please tell me something good about islam. I can think of a couple of things myself, but they don't make up for the bad bits.
I'd like to know what you see in it.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 18:19

Back, who decides what? What an actual verse means or how it is applied?

Have a read of this if your interested in finding out more. A lay person cant really explain it that well.

www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-studies/islamic-law/understanding-usul-al-fiqh/

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 18:25

What percentage of the people deciding are women?

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 18:26

By the way that website I linked to has a lot of information about topics like domestic violence and others that people have asked about. If your really interested you can have a look as I really have to get back to real life now. I have work tomorrow eek!

redshifter · 09/12/2013 18:28

I quoted above some verses from the Koran. There are quite clear about unbelievers.

I am told I am misinterpreting. I am told that 1400 years of expert scholarly study shows that they do not mean what thay say, then told that few muslims are experts on the Koran but all muslims have no problem understanding it even though it experts took 1400 years.

But there is not just one or two verses like this. If that was all I could possibly see a misinterpretation. There are pages of them.

Please tell me what the Koran actually means when it says these things about unbelievers.

Please tell me optimist , what your God meant when he dictated these things to the prophet.

And please stop assuming you know about me. That you know my race, nationality, culture, history etc. It makes you sound prejudiced and stupid.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 18:39

Ive linked you the website Red read it for yourself. You have difficulty understanding because atheists such as yourself like to pretend that religion is uncomplicated and simple whilst science is something complex that takes years to understand. Do you think a biologist could ever know all there is to know about biology? A humble, realistic one would admit that there is always something they could learn, that they dont know everything. Similarly much of the scholarship dates from the first few centuries of Islam but it is continiously developed and expanded as people's understanding grows. For example there is a verse that states.

"Corruption will appear on land and sea because of (the evil) which men's hands have done" Holy Quran 30:42

In the past scholars wondered how corruption could appear on the sea but now a popular modern interpretation of the verse is that it could be talking about environmental damage/global warming/pollution caused by humans. In that way interpretation can change as our understanding and experience changes.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 18:47

Just had a quick flick through the website. Hettie and Kitten you would find this interesting.

www.suhaibwebb.com/category/society/domestic-violence/

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 19:03

Still reading but this seems to sum up the point I was interested in.

The person not skilled in and qualified to practice ijtihad is known in usul al-fiqh literature as a muqalid. The muqalid is a person not qualified to engage in independent investigation because he lacks the qualifications, meaning that he has not mastered the principles of research methodology. Consequently, this category of persons is obligated to follow the research of those who are qualified to research,

So you have a book written by Allah which can't be wrong, but you are told what the actual words mean by ordinary humans with all their flaws.

So not quite like the catholic church with one guy in charge. More like Christianity with lots of denominations. Christians can be CofE and not kill people in the name of god or they can follow another branch and it is god's will. They can believe in the literal creation, Adam & Eve, the flood or they can join a church that claims those to be metaphors.

Partly 'pick the one you fancy' and partly 'be in the one that was prevalent in the area you were born'