To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

Interesting about Muhammad speaking out against wife beating. Can anyone confirm if he said it was always wrong or wrong to do so without a good reason?

I don't see how he could contradict the Quran while maintaining it was the word of Allah.

are redshifter and backonly trying to say that peaceful criticising american foreign policy means she is disloyal to the UK? is that to be a further test of how british we are then?

Good attempt at twisting it, but it fails miserably. I am questioning why the US is my ally and not peacfuloptimist's ally. If they are my ally only because I live in the UK.

Curlew - Correct, the law in Saudi forbidding women to drive is a classic example of something completely alien to Islam being passed off as Islamic

It is also important to note examples such as the laws giving leniency for honour killings, are not Islamic, but actually date from French colonial times.

All this talk of "Islamic countries" is somewhat misleading. The laws of Muslim majority countries are often collated from a variety of sources, both religious, those from colonial times, tribal/cultural customs etc.

Some viewpoints on this thread seem to be positing a very simplistic viewpoint and linking all and any problems that happen in the Muslim world to Islam and Islamic religious scriptures.

This ignores post-colonialism, the global impact of the Cold War, secular (yet still very oppressive) movements such as Pan Arabism.

The problems in Somalia and Afghanistan go far, far beyond religion and are rooted in prolonged periods of war and economic instability.

Backonly my original comment was to Hettie who was holding me and other muslim mumsnetters personally responsible for misogyny in the muslim world. You then came and asked why I would hold her responsible for American foreign policy (and British to a certain extent) but are not questioning why she holds me responsible for mistreatment of women in Pakistan or Yemen neither of which I live in or have my origins in.

I personally like the fact that babies and mothers have the right to breastfeed until at least 2 years of age

But I would say that I don't like the fact that they have to be given this "right" by a religion.

Back what part do you think ridicule has to play in "gentle argument and debate"?

peacefuloptimist Actually that's not what she said, but my concern here is that you are talking to me as though I share responsibility for the actions of the US. Either because I live in the UK or because I am non-muslim and I'm curious to know which. If you also live in the UK I am bound to assume it's the latter. As in "all kafir are the same".

So there is absolutely nothing in the Qur'an about men being allowed to beat their wives? Nothing at all?

Backonly my original comment was to Hettie who was holding me and other muslim mumsnetters personally responsible for misogyny in the muslim world

You have misrepresented my position as dishonestly as you represented Sam Harris's.

I blame the doctrine of Islam, not individual Muslims - unless they, personally, engage in this kind of behavior.

but are not questioning why she holds me responsible for mistreatment of women in Pakistan or Yemen neither of which I live in or have my origins in

I don't. But I won't be told I have to respect the beliefs of a religion which, followed as it itself demands it should be, leads to 8 year old children getting married to old men.

How old was little Aisha when she married Muhammed? 6. Luckily he didn't have sex with her then - he waited till she was 9. That was nice of him.

This is the same Muhammed who is universally respected throughout the Muslim world, who sets the standards of behaviour for all men? Whose image is so precious, a cartoon of it causes worldwide outrage and results in people being murdered?

Fucks sake. It's like trying to talk to people from the Middle Ages.

BackOnly I have already explained my comment and yes she did say that Ive quoted it above. And people on this thread have complained about religious people acting like you should 'do as I say not as I do'. Well Back I have loooooooooooooads of non muslim friends so I cant possibly hate non muslims can I.

Dione I may answer more fully later, but for now I'd say a better part than bombs and beheadings. Though generally the ridicule is brought to the party by those who make such outrageous claims.
I know the comparison with other beliefs can also feel like ridicule, but you can hardly count that since to experience it as ridicule exposes the 'victim's' contempt for that other belief.

These laws do promote hatred, division, murder & human rights abuses - so when anyone follows it, we have a problem.

If you're not part of the solution (which you manifestly are not) then you are part of the problem.

I don't think any woman trying to pretend that Islam is a religion of peace, insisting that the atrocities committed against women all over the Muslim world (and it's endemic, not a "handful") are "cultural", rather than religious and therefore should be "respected" because they do things differently there... etc have no business calling themselves feminists.

I'm not sure you do care. If you did, you'd be shouting louder than me

Hettie are you not aware of the differences in life then, when the koran came about to how it is now

do you not think that muslims recognise this

but yes some muslim girls are married off, so are some hindu girls in societies where corrupt governments, cruel regimes, poverty and war is what really stops people progressing not religion

You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension, peaceful.

Quote me all you like, but I did not say what you think I did. I'm hoping this is because you're not terribly bright, rather than dishonest.

Of course, you are the person who threatened me with Armageddon, so I know what I'll plump for.

(Clever editing of my comments - all out of order and not making a lot of sense).

areredshifterandbackonlytrying to say thatpeacefulcriticising american foreign policy means she is disloyal to the UK? is that to be a further test of how british we are then?

No. I was just asking what country she was in as she said we have different allies.

I personally, disagree with American foreign policy and the policies of successive UK governments. I just feel that I have no more or less responsibility for them than a British muslim.

Why are they my allies and not hers?

Why on Earth would I want to test how British someone is when I don't even know if they are British? There are posters on this site of all different nationalities, posting from all over the world. I wouldn't assume stuff about people I don't. Just like you shouldn't assume stuff about me. You don't know what nationality I am, or what race I am, or what sex I am, or anything about my cultural or religious heritage.

I should be able to ask what country someone is posting from without the knee jerk defensive reaction that I want to test their Britishness. Whatever that is.

Freudian - but I thought it was the word of god. Surely can't change with the times then - or he would have made that clear?

There seem to be a lot of wrong interpretations of the koran, if what you guys say is right and it is a peaceful, woman respecting, anti slavery, tolerant re homosexuality document.
Why on earth didn't god write more clearly then?

"Hettie are you not aware of the differences in life then, when the koran came about to how it is now

do you not think that muslims recognise this"

But earlier on, weren't people saying that the Qur'an was the immutable, miraculous word of God?

Freudian

According to Islam, Muhammed was sent from Allah to show men how to live. He is the perfect example to follow.

He had sex with a pre-pubescent child, hit his wife and ordered the deaths of Jews.

Hmmm...now then, where might some Muslims get the idea that marrying children, hitting their wives and hating Jews is perfectly fine?

Now that's a puzzler.

Does "they did things differently then" justify paedophilia? I'm inclined to say no.

And frankly, any prophet sent by God/Allah would presumably try to avoid doing things that a loving God/Allah would frown on, surely?

I think raping a child is about as bad as it gets.

Optimist I stand by absolutely everything I said. Apologists for Islam of the kind we are seeing here - demanding respect for their beliefs and lying about what's actually in the Koran - are part of the problem.

If we can't criticise the horrors of Islam without having to go through you first, then you're going to get burned. Your choice.

But your offence is too irrelevant to shut me up, I'm afraid.

yes it is the word of god for muslims

that can be applied to life then, 2013 and 1510

are muslims not intelligent enough to work that out

Back, I do hope that you come back and explain how ridicule will benefit "argument and gentle debate", because I have read your reply and it makes no sense at all.

Well there does seem to be some confusion amongst your fellow muslims, freudian.