To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

i am not a believer, i have yet to meet one muslim who has told me i am wrong, i shall go to hell, i am not worth knowing

Neither have I. Perhaps that's because we live in a very enlightened, secular country where Islam is not in charge.

I wonder if we'd say the same if we were in Pakistan?

But that doesn't answer the question. How do you know you are right?

I have as much right to comment on islam as I do on any other ideology I disagree with.

I haven't read 'Mein kampf' either.

You are just trying to stop criticism.
But as you say 'if it quacks like a duck'.

well i had no issue saying that when i lived in a muslim country

are we talking about islam as in what is written in the koran or countries where people fear the government and those in power

How do you propose to do that then? Premptive nuclear strikes as suggested by Sam Harris who also believes in 'profiling not just of Muslims but “anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be a Muslim.”' Oh yeah but thats not racism is it?

No, it isn't. But neither did he actually say either of those things. You clearly haven't bothered reading his books, just parroted someone else's opinion.

Why? Not got any of your own?

Have the decency to read his explanation of these LIBELS against his character & work HERE.

If you're going to address any remarks to me, get your fucking facts right.

And wanting to disabuse people of beliefs that are not true is not "threatening". It's called education. Get yourself one.

You are the one who thinks she has the answers.
I bet scientologists feel the same.
I am saying that I don't believe the answers come out of your book, or any other. We can get nearer to the truth by debate, something that islam seems to frown upon.

How do you propose to do that then? Premptive nuclear strikes

How about reasoned debate over many generations?, Do you really think violence is the only way peacefuloptimist?

So, there are no passages of the Qur'an which are discriminatory against women?

Why do so many Islamic countries have discrimination against women written into their laws, then?

are we talking about islam as in what is written in the koran or countries where people fear the government and those in power

Both.

The Islamic regimes feared by their people are fundamentalist ones. They follow the teachings of the Koran to the letter, that's why they are fundamentalist.

Fundamentalism/extremism within Islam would not be a problem if the fundamentals of the religion itself were not so dangerous.

The more progressive the Islamic country/state, the less they rigidly follow the Koranic teachings.

But Muslims on this board, and in general, want to have their cake and eat it.

You cannot on the one hand claim that the Koran is 100% true then dismiss the notion that it is a fundamentally violent ideology.

If it wasn't, then extremism of the kind we see would not exist.

This is not the same as saying that therefore all Muslims are extremists. Of course they are not - we'd all be in a lot of trouble if they were.

but taking bits out of the koran toprovea point is what the edl do

It is also what defuse does.

If she can do it, so can I.

sorry Hettie that is a load of rubbish

my ex mil followed the koran like no one else i have known she had no issue with me being a non believer she told me off for fasting as it was not my belief (though was pleased i tried)

again religion and ideology of any kind will be used by those in power to keep powerful often wrongly to keep people fearful

what the state instructs and what people do are not the same but fear often makes people live in a way they wish not to we only need to look at what is happening in the me right now so called progressive countries where people feared following their religion have been overthrown it will take time to settle down what people do not want is to be dictated to which is what many governments do and use whatever means to do so

How about reasoned debate over many generations?

Oh you mean like what happened in Afganistan, Iraq, Somalia or Mali? Wait I forgot when you kill or support unjust regimes for national interests then that is perfectly reasonable right? And what makes you think muslims want to have their religion abolished or eradicated, certainly not words with peaceful connotations are they. So claims by some atheists on this thread that as long as people keep their religion to themselves they are not bothered is obviously not shared by everyone. If I am expected to answer for what every nutter/misogynist does in the muslim world even if I dont support them then I dont see why you should not be expected to answer for what your ally does.

I dont see why you should not be expected to answer for what yourallydoes

What country are you in peaceful? If you are in the UK like me then surely our allies are the same.

Aren't they?

I love the way that using parts of the Qu'ran is criticised as being blinkered and unfair to represent a majority Muslim view, etc., BUT a couple of things said by two well-known Atheists - one, at least, libellously misrepresented, when the quotes from the Qu'ran are correct - are okay to use to represent what anyone who questions religion, Islam in particular, think or want?

But why an I even bothering to get annoyed by religious people repeatedly using the "Do as I say, not as I do" card when it comes to protecting their privilege and delusion.

(Incidentally, I certainly do not agree with C Hitchens' views on Islam)

"again religion and ideology of any kind will be used by those in power to keep powerful often wrongly to keep people fearful"

So you knowingly submit to this? Even more bonkers than being unaware or denying it!

Oxford, that applies to all political systems, not just those in Islamic countries. Machiavelli detailed it and successive political leaders have followed it. Thatcher was a prime example, yet we submitted to her.

my ex mil followed the koran like no one else i have known she had no issue with me being a non believer she told me off for fasting as it was not my belief (though was pleased i tried)

Oh, fair enough.

Your mother in law vs The Taliban.

what about my ex mil vs the taliban what are you asking?

peacefuloptimist I'm talking about gentle persuasion and debate and you keep coming back to violence. And still you are lumping me in with all other non-muslims. Is it that hard to see non-muslims as individuals?

Btw you said:
How do you propose to do that then? Premptive nuclear strikes as suggested by Sam Harris who also believes in 'profiling not just of Muslims but “anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be a Muslim.

I have read the source of both of those claims and they are both false. If you read them yourself then you will see they are false and that you made the mistake of taking one line from a book out of context. Or rather someone else made that mistake and then you jumped on it gratefully.

And I'll echo Redshifter's question What country are you in peaceful?

So, crescentmoon, the so called Islamic governments that imposed draconian laws against women are actually being anti Islamic, because they are not following the teachings of the Qur'an?

There's lots of brilliant stuff in Islam. I personally like the fact that babies and mothers have the right to breastfeed until at least 2 years of age. There's lots of good things in all religions.

The point is, you don't need any religion at all to be moral, to understand, know and work out what is right and good. The idea that people need religion for any of that is actually an insult to personal integrity. I am not so weak, immoral, stupid, malicious, etc., that I need any outside source to help me work out right from wrong and motivate me to be a good person. And neither does anyone else.

And the other point is, we could list all the good points of every religion here until we break the internet - the fact remains that no god exists, there has been, nor ever will be, one iota of any remote source of proof of that, and it is unfair and obscene to ask people to accept or respect that this is a truth without proof.

Oh, and fuck off with the whole nonsense about linking Atheism with neocons and militarism! We keep being told that when we say we we don't think God exists, or that a magical invisible man can write a book is angry and offensive, etc., yet it's fine to come out with outrageous lie-soreading like that?! Behave.

So you have a problem with me pigeonholing but have no issue with the way Hettie has assigned collective blame on muslim mumsnetters for the atrocities committed by Radical Muslims because they dare to challenge her.

You do realise that the majority of Muslims worldwide do not follow the teachings of Islam very closely, which is why they are not all suicide bombers dreaming of their 72 virgins in Paradise.

Once again - Islam is not a person. It's not even a set of people. It's a narrative focused around a set of principles in a book - a book that claims to be 100% true and lays down laws about how people should live their lives. These laws do promote hatred, division, murder & human rights abuses - so when anyone follows it, we have a problem.

A veil wearing Muslim woman should have the same rights as me, regardless of her religion. If she chooses not to exercise them, fine.....but she should have them. Very, very often she doesn't. I care...why don't you? Because, frankly,I'm not sure you do care. If you did, you'd be shouting louder than me.

The justification for all of these things is Sharia Law - and Sharia Law comes straight from Koranic verses or the example set by Muhammed (who married a child and hit his wife). Worldwide, Islam is a catastrophe for women. Muslim women all over the globe live with the kind of oppression unthinkable in our little patch of planet. Your squealing and demanding respect is doing them no favours whatsoever. If you're not part of the solution (which you manifestly are not) then you are part of the problem.

Well, since you ask, yes....I'll stick my neck out here. I don't think any woman trying to pretend that Islam is a religion of peace, insisting that the atrocities committed against women all over the Muslim world (and it's endemic, not a "handful") are "cultural", rather than religious and therefore should be "respected" because they do things differently there... etc have no business calling themselves feminists. Yes - I'll stand by that. And, actually, I think such a view is racist to boot

Exactly what have I misunderstood. Her vile views are perfectly clear to see.