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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

999 replies

Throughthelongnight · 06/12/2013 22:20

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

OP posts:
KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 12:00

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/12/2013 12:19

Friday, I am getting the impression that far from seeking to end such things, you are just using them to justify your anger and hate. I find it Sad that instead of combatting injustice you use it to try and hurt others. And you are not the only one doing it. I wish to point out that I don't think all the anti-theists on this thread are doing this, but some definitely are. Indeed their silence when asked for solutions speaks volumes.

Earlier in the thread I likened such attitudes as yours to racism. People mistakenly thought I was equating belief with skin colour. I wasn't. I wasnt. What I meant is that some racists hate black people, not because people are black. Their intolerance stems from their own personal pain.Sad

I doubt I could say anything that will change your mind Friday, because your problem isn't caused by me or any other believer. The problem lies within yourself.Sad

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 12:24

For the record, I don't hate you, or muslims generally. It may also suprise you that I have had muslim friends who I have been very fond of.
I'm glad of the opportunity to discuss here points that I didn't feel I could raise with them.
However, I think that religion is dangerous, especially for women, and that Islam is currently the worst of the lot.

FreudiansSlipper · 09/12/2013 12:31

any violent person will always find something to give them a good reason to be violent

picking bits out of the koran, bible or whatever they will do so as they need an excuse

a good person, a good muslim does not beat his wife why well you have to read the koran and have faith in people that they are fundamentally good

i work in dv it happens in all cultures, social backgrounds and those committing the violence will always always have an excuse have heard them all but there is only one reason to for dv and that is about control

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 12:31

Now for you Hettie. First of all when I read posts like yours it really makes me despair that this clash of civilisations predicted (and desired) by some is inevitable. Let me tell you this Hettie and I do not mean this as a threat. If you make this a war against Islam, you are literally going to bring on the Armageddon because there is no way 1.5 billion muslims are going to leave their religion because some idiot tells them too.

As for your comments about Muslim women. How bloody dare you! (Sorry Dione I really tried to channel your calmness but I couldnt do it). Who on earth do you think you are to start pointing fingers at anyone? What have you done to help any of those muslim women? Unlike you who are just using them in your hateful agenda, the muslim mumsnetters and I actually give a damn about those muslim women suffering because they are OUR sisters, OUR mothers, OUR daughters. Its absolutely laughable that EDL types such as yourself cry crocodile tears for muslim women in Afghanistan but then spit and attack muslim women in the UK. Oh and before you complain about the EDL comment, if it quacks like a duck then it is a duck and your comment about all terrorists are muslims or whatever BS you wrote is like a neon sign saying "Im an Islamophobe!" What is your evidence for that by the way? Who gets to choose when killing innocent people is an act of terrorism and when it is collateral damage hmm? Nothing political or biased in how that word gets used is there? Hmm Or are we just supposed to accept your labels, so a prisoner of war becomes an enemy combatant and you can ignore the geneva convention and lock people up indefinitely without charge. No no your hands are whiter than white arent they?

Who the hell are you to decide what Islam is or isnt? I am a follower of the faith. The muslim mumsnetters are followers of the faith. Those muslim women who you talked about are followers of the faith. We get to define our religion. NOT YOU! If those muslim women blame the religion for their suffering I respect that and I hear that but they dont on the whole. Let me ask you something by the way. If the institutions in this country were removed, lets say you didnt have a stable government, the courts and police were corrupt and the laws were not enforced or didnt exist because a government was never in power long enough to pass them. Do you seriously believe that women would still be protected from sexual abuse and harassment? My god with all the laws and the infrastructure to enforce it you still get 2 women dying a week from domestic violence, you still get thousands of women being raped or sexually assaulted every year, you still get hundreds/thousands of cases of sexual discrimination and sexual harassment, you still get single mothers receiving little or no child support from their ex partners. What is causing it here then, Islam?

Yet you expect in countries that have none of these institutions, that have constant instability, that are suffering from desperate poverty that they would be able to do what you cant do which is eradicate violence and injustice against women. By the way that is not an excuse that is the reality unfortunately. Its just not a priority in some countries where people are literally fighting to stay alive and keep their families alive every day.

You do not have the right to pick and choose who is following Islam properly especially if the only people who are practicing Islam properly according to you are the ones who are violent/abusive. If Islam teaches that why dont all muslims do it? People can claim whatever the hell they like and there are definitely some who will claim religion motivates their violence against others but unless their interpretation is agreed with by not just muslim scholars but the muslim community as a whole then Im sorry they are just deluding themselves and you obviously. If I as an atheist go and blow up churches and mosques and say that Im doing it for atheism are you going to accept that as a valid representation of atheism? Of course you wouldnt. We have people on here arguing that Stalin or Mao's (or the other numerous atheist despots mentioned) persecution of religious people was not caused by their atheism?

Islam spread to many different cultures that had deeply entrenched patriarchal structures. Some of the attitudes towards women were retained by the people even after they became muslims. That counts as culture. Let me give you an example. I have Muslim friends from the indian sub-continent who have complained to me about the practice of bridal dowries where the brides family pay exorbitant amounts to the grooms family. This makes some people resentful of having daughters (though thankfully they cant abort them or kill them off as that is prohibited by Islam) and can result in them being mistreated. Now where did this practice come from? In Islam its the groom who has to pay a dowry to the bride (not her family). Why? So that she will have her own savings or means of earning an income (if he gifts her with land or livestock). Well if you take a closer look you will see many of the practices shared with other people from the indian sub-continent (ever heard of dowry killings or wondered about the high abortion rates of females in India) who are not muslim. Therefore you can not blame these attitudes on Islam. Instead it is a result of their culture. Especially since it is not practiced by all the worlds 1.5 billion muslims. Islam managed to wipe it out of some people but not all. The same thing with FGM. It is largely practiced by muslims in parts of the world where it is already common and is practiced by people of other faiths. You dont find FGM as a widespread practice taking place in the indian sub continent or in the Arab world. Does that mean we should allow these cultural practices to continue because they have always been there. Of course not. But what do you think is going to make people (in particular muslims) reject these practices, if you tell them that they are actually acting against the teachings of their religion or that they need to give up their religion because their religion is the cause. Islam is the solution not the problem. There are religious, practicing muslims who work tirelessly to help these women who are in need. Its not a case of either or. Im sure those muslim liberals you mentioned would be absolutely horrified by the comments you have made about Islam, the Quran and the Prophet Muhammed PBUH. Someone asked me yesterday if I would express my views in the mosque and around other muslims and I wonder really if you would voice this vehement hatred you have for Islam in front of these so called muslim liberals? And people think that its only religious people who are dogmatic. Read back on this thread and you will find numerous examples of atheists expecting people to just accept their illogical, offensive statements as fact.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/12/2013 12:35

Kitten, I'm not a Muslim. I am a deist and believer in people.Xmas Smile

HettiePetal · 09/12/2013 12:37

Indeed their silence when asked for solutions speaks volumes

The solution is to abolish antiquated, 7th century beliefs that promote a patriarchal society and declare women to be second class citizens.

The only possible way to do that is to show that the beliefs have no basis in fact. If that takes a big, enormous dose of reality - by way of ridicule OF THE BELIEFS - then so be it.

Your appalling & deliberate misuse of the word "racist", your determination to be offended on behalf of others, dressed up in twee language & liberally dotted with :( faces is adding to the problem.

The 8 year old Yemeni girl being raped on her wedding night by her 50 year old husband does not need your "respect" for his beliefs half as much as she needs our lack of respect for them.

Think on that - if that's not completely beyond you.

Why all women in the world are not seething about this, I truly do not know. I suppose fucking stupid ASDA adverts showing women doing all the Christmas prep is far more worthy of feminist ire.

In fairness, I suspect the reality is that most do not really know - or have believed the nonsense about it only being a tiny minority of the Islamic world. That's a lie. When it comes to abuse of women & girls, Muslims are suffering more than any of you can comprehend.

And your answer? "Respect their beliefs".

You know what? NO.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 12:37

I don't know if the poster you are referring to really is EDL. Unless they have said this, how dare you assume that they are?
Also, how dare you assume that people who object to your religion have not done anything to help muslim women in this country.
I certainly have. I can't say how, as it might out me, but you have no right to assume.

HettiePetal · 09/12/2013 12:38

If you make this a war against Islam, you are literally going to bring on the Armageddon because there is no way 1.5 billion muslims are going to leave their religion because some idiot tells them too

I stopped reading at this.

Go threaten someone who gives a shit.

I don't.

HettiePetal · 09/12/2013 12:42

I don't know if the poster you are referring to really is EDL. Unless they have said this, how dare you assume that they are?

I'm not. And absolutely nothing that I have written could lead anyone to suppose that I am.

Unless that ranter is persuaded that criticism of Islam = racism. In which case, they are too stupid for me to waste my valuable time on.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/12/2013 12:43

Kitten I didn't say that anyone was EDL or indeed racist. I said that the hatred they feel for religion, stems from the same place as racist hatred. Inside themselves. The target group in cases like this is immaterial.

FreudiansSlipper · 09/12/2013 12:45

many posts on here are attacking islam and the people that follow islam which is what the edl are doing

taking verses from the koran to prove their point that is what has been done on here and that is what the edl do

kitten you are so transparent the i have muslim friends line how did i know that was coming Hmm

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 12:46

Why is that not possible?
I don't hate mulsims. I do hate islam.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 12:47

I also hate christianity, but have christian friends too.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 12:48

Curlew I want to answer your question but dont have time right now. The short answer is no. Hopefully someone else will come along soon and address it more comprehensively.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 12:52

Wow! peacefuloptimist, your anger did you no favours there. The misquotes can be corrected by those whose words you twisted, but I'll note that you seem to be blaming UK posters for US foreign policy. Are you lumping us together because we live in the west? Surely not since so do you. Is it because we are non-muslim then? Are all non-muslims one huge inseparable mass?

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 12:56

if it quacks like a duck then it is a duck
yup, that sums up islam.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/12/2013 12:59

FreudiansSlipper I was expecting someone to start on an attack on the basis of a non-muslim having muslim friends.

You might want to have a quiet sit down there and think that through. If your or anyone claims that someone hates all muslims then it is perfectly reasonable to demonstrate that this is not true because they freely associate with people who are muslim.

You just picked out a standard line from the "how to best attack non-muslim/white people" list. Best to work out what you think really and post that.

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 13:03

Oh Im threatening you Hettie am I.

"The solution is to abolish antiquated, 7th century beliefs that promote a patriarchal society and declare women to be second class citizens."

How do you propose to do that then? Premptive nuclear strikes as suggested by Sam Harris who also believes in 'profiling not just of Muslims but “anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be a Muslim.”' Oh yeah but thats not racism is it? Hmm

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/atheists-richard-dawkins-christopher-hitchens-and-sam-harris-face-islamophobia-backlash-8570580.html

By the way Kitten, why should we take anything you say seriously about Islam when you havent even read the whole Quran. Its like me claiming to be a physicist because I watched a documentary or read an article about CERN.

FreudiansSlipper · 09/12/2013 13:10

i have never said anyone hates muslims

but taking bits out of the koran to prove a point is what the edl do

it is not a debate if it was you read up more, openly discuss the issues of oppression of women in some muslim countries along with issues of dv but that is not a muslim issue itself and as for the rates being higer well i am not sure where you get your stats from but in some countries the understanding of what dv is about is minimal

i am not a muslim i am white, but i have choosen to educate myself about the religion (my ex was a muslim i have family who are muslim) and having lived in a muslim country i am well aware of what is muslim bashing and what is not

argue your point with knowledge not just what suits your agenda. you do not have to respect a religion but why would you not respect that peoples faith is very important to them.

i am not a believer, i have yet to meet one muslim who has told me i am wrong, i shall go to hell, i am not worth knowing, i have no morals. sure many have been confused as to why i do not believe and what i believe but none have been critical towards me for not believing

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 13:11

Ha ha peaceful - Have you read the whole bible, the whole of every other religious text?
Have you?
if not - how do you know you are right.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 13:12

Come on - I really want an answer to that one.
What about scientology - have you read all the texts?
How do you know it is wrong???????????????

HettiePetal · 09/12/2013 13:12

many posts on here are attacking islam and the people that follow islam which is what the edl are doing

How very prejudiced of you.

You do realise that the majority of Muslims worldwide do not follow the teachings of Islam very closely, which is why they are not all suicide bombers dreaming of their 72 virgins in Paradise.

Presumably, you are unable to make that distinction, so can only conclude that attacking the core beliefs intrinsic to Islam is the same thing as attacking every Muslim.

I am capable of not judging all Muslims by the doctrines of Islam. Why aren't you?

Like I said, that's quite prejudiced. I'm sure you didn't mean to be, so try having a little think next time.

And your comparison with the EDL is pathetic. Clue yourself up.

KittensoftPuppydog · 09/12/2013 13:13

Waiting....

peacefuloptimist · 09/12/2013 13:16

I havent no, but then I dont go around commenting on others religious books arrogantly telling them I have understood it better then they have.