To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

defuse I have pointed out several times you have gone from being adamant your book was written by a god. Then you state , when asked how you reconcile your beliefs with the discrepancies of others who are equally convinced they are right, you say , oh I'd never challenge others beliefs.

So which is it? Your god and your book is the true one or just one set of possibilities? Including mine that god does not exist?

I see you are still ignoring my other questions. I'm genuinely interested. Your god didn't send his son to save us,the Christian god did. Are these 2 different gods? If not that's a pretty major confusion about what he's been up to.

Could I ask the followers of Islam on here-is there, as there is in Christianity, any discrimination against women in the tenets of the faith? Or is the discrimination against women that is so obvious in Islamic countries "cultural" rather than "religious"? And if it is cultural, where does it come from?

Curlew, discrimination against women is not only cultural, but pretty universal. It stems from the agricultural revolution when protection of crops and property resulted in the rise of the warrior class (placing huge importance on physical strength), the need for numerous offspring (workforce) and the desire to know exactly whose children were whose (for inheritance).

This lead to women being valued for their reproductive abilities and the need to control women's sexuality in order to guarantee parentage for inheritance purposes.

I hope this answers your question.

No, it doesn't answer my question at all. Are you Muslim, Dione?

For the avoidance of doubt, this is the question you did not answer "Could I ask the followers of Islam on here-is there, as there is in Christianity, any discrimination against women in the tenets of the faith?"

Curlew, I am not Muslim. What I was pointing out was the fact that the subjugation of women predates our religions and was already well established by the time human beings developed writing.

What difference would it make to you if a Muslim had typed the post Curlew?

What I was pointing out was the fact that the subjugation of women predates our religions and was already well established by the time human beings developed writing

So was slavery. No-one seriously advances it as a justification, though.

I was not "justifying" anything Friday. I was answering the question asking "if discrimination against women is cultural, where does it come from?"

""if discrimination against women is cultural, where does it come from?"
Thank you Dione. If that was the question I had asked, rather than a question specifically about Islamic countries, and I I had been 12 years old, your answer would have been very enlightening.

That's where discrimination against women comes from in Islamic and non Islamic countries Curlew. Do you think discrimination against women has a different source in Islamic countries to say Hindu or Buddhist countries?

It's just a big fat coincidence that the violence perpetrated against women, children, gays, infidels & apostates in Islamic countries is supported by passages from the Koran & Hadith etc, I suppose.

Of course it's true that subjugation of women existed long before the great religions of peace showed up - they merely formalised the misogyny by writing it down.

Lots of info (cited & sourced) on HERE

Oh - and there are loads of statistics from all sorts of places that pretty much demolish the whole "we're only talking about a tiny minority of Muslim people". That may well be true with regard to terror attacks - but it's manifestly not true when it comes to honour killings, rape, domestic violence & murder, paedophilia, enforced marriage and so on.

The justification for all of these things is Sharia Law - and Sharia Law comes straight from Koranic verses or the example set by Muhammed (who married a child and hit his wife).

Worldwide, Islam is a catastrophe for women.

Do you think discrimination against women has a different source in Islamic countries to say Hindu or Buddhist countries?

No one is likely to say that sexual discrimination doesn't occur in England. But it's certainly not on remotely the scale of, say, Saudi Arabia. How is it that we've been able to shake off the past history that you think justifies it, while other countries haven't been able to? And that, in general, women are oppressed in pretty much direct proportion to the influence the prevailing religion has on society? It does seem something of a co-incidence, doesn't it?

Friday, I think that our economy, education and health systems have vastly improved the lot of women here, just as they have in other parts of the world. If we are serious about promoting women's rights worldwide and strengthening and building on them here, I think that it will be by ensuring health, education and opportunity for all.

Telling people that they must ditch their belief system will not help, indeed it is counterproductive in that it will alienate people with faith who seek change and are in a better position than us to bring those changes about. Good people of faith exist. It would be foolish to ignore them or ridicule them if what we seek is a better world for women.

My view is that we should work together to end the subjugation of people. What do you think we should do Friday?

Well certainly some of the discrimination against women in western culture is Judeo/Christian and Biblical in origin. I am interested in whether the same applies to Islamic culture and the Qur'an. Feel free to answer Dione- although I would obviously prefer an answer from a
Muslim woman.

Have read OP only.
Talk about Father Christmas/God/Whatever
If you disagree with the above, explain some people believe and others don't. Sending your child to school to 'educate' everyone is equally as bad as the former as the believers doing it.

Just shut up the fuck up and leave your self righteous (either side) To your bloody self!

Yeah, kids will talk/boast/mock. That's called being a kid.

Teaching them to preach either side just makes you a cunt.

I had to click on this thread when I saw it had had 666 responses.

As you were.

Ditto, Spidermama

Caitlin I will start with you. There is no discrepency in what Defuse is saying. She believes (like most/all muslims) that the Quran is a revelation from God. There are certain proofs or evidences that have convinced her personally that this is the case (its not just a simple matter of because the book says so we believe it, we believe in what the book says because we are convinced that it is a revelation from God for other reasons then just because it says so but Im not going to share that with you because its personal so dont bother asking. Do some research yourself if your interested). She mentioned one in particular but there are probably multiple evidences that have convinced her. Religious people like atheists dont hold their beliefs for one particular reason but instead there are multiple reasons why they choose to believe what they do. Oh and before you say that atheists base their ideas on proofs or whatever we have already stated there is no definitive proof that God does not exist though I do concede BackOnlys point earlier that certain ideas about God can be proved to be inaccurate. Back to what I was saying just because Defuse has a strong belief in her own religion doesnt mean that she would force that on others or not accept that other people can hold equally strong beliefs in other religions. The Quran says;

“ There is no compulsion in religion…” (Qur’an, 2:256)

“Had your Lord wanted, all the people on earth would have believed. So will you force people to believe?” (Qur’an, 10:99)

“He (God) does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith and driven you out of your homes, God loves the just.” (Qur’an, 60:8)

I think they are pretty self explanatory but just in case you dont get it the Quran accepts that people will have different beliefs and encourages us to be kind and just to people regardless.

Now that brings me back to your point Caitlin. Well I cant speak for the other religions attitudes towards different ideas about God but Islam is unique as far as I know in that it actually acknowledges not just one but multiple religions in its holy book. The Quran in particular talks extensively about jews and christians. It gives them an honorific title of People of the Book. We recognise most if not all the prophets mentioned in the bible and we see the Prophet Muhammed PBUH as the last in that lineage of great prophets. The Quran describes him as the seal of the prophets and the Prophet Muhammed explained it as follows.

“The example of me with respect to the prophets before me is like that of a man who built a house and made it complete save one brick. People were looking at how nice the building was but were wondering about that brick. I am that brick and I am the last of the prophets.”

The Quran refers to jews and christians as People of the Book because it acknowledges that they also received divine revelation, specifically the torah and bible. However what the Quran says about them is that although there are elements of divine guidance in them the books were changed by human beings and the message was corrupted. To be honest this does not differ very much from what biblical scholars and many christians today now believe about the bible. I remember watching a programme about the bible where the biblical scholars acknowledged that the pentateuch or old testament was not actually written by Moses (how could it be when it describes his death/funeral - not sure exactly) and instead was comprised of 4 different sources/authors that were written at different times. So in the past Muslim scholars did refer to the scriptures of jews and christians to find out more details about the lives of the Prophets but it is all taken with a pinch of salt because although we regard some of its teachings as having divine origin we can not distinguish from the bits that were changed.

With regards to Jesus PBUH our position is probably half way between judaism and christianity. We regard him as the messiah, a Great prophet and messenger from God. We believe in his miracles, we believe in his miraculous birth. However like the jews we do not believe he is the Son of God.

As muslims we believe that God sent a Prophet to all nations usually a person from that particular nation/race/group. However the original message of those prophets was not necessarily preserved so though we can see elements of truth in lots of different religions and we can acknowledge that they may have received revelation or divine guidance in their history we do not follow them because we can not distinguish the truth from the falsehood.

I hope that makes sense.

Specialagent, Spidermama & Chive .

I think that it will be by ensuring health, education and opportunity for all.

Indeed. So tell me about education for women in Muslim countries. Available to all? Well, those that don't mind getting shot in the head, anyway.

Friday, what would be your solution?

BTW, are you aware that Muslim girls in many Muslim countries attend school and are not under threat for doing so?

Hi Chums
Back briefly.
Thanks for your reply Gosh. Can you now confirm whether you feel that apostacy and homosexuality is a sin?
Also, if the koran is the word of god, how come you don't believe what he says about women?
And that as you do not follow the hadiths, they are out of date.
Plus the person who told me to go and tell my dog to 'jump', I don't do this. Animals are not here for us to boss around and she is far too old anyway.

And one more question. All of you who insist that we study the koran in great detail before we can comment, have you done this will all other religious texts?
If not, how do you know you are following the right book?
Also, text by great atheists, such as Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Ayan Hirsi Ali. How do you know they are wrong?

BTW, are you aware that Muslim girls in many Muslim countries attend school and are not under threat for doing so?

www.humanrights.asia/resources/journals-magazines/eia/eiav4a1/3-acid-attacks-a-serious-concern-in-pakistan.