To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

Better and more accurate still would be to call it by it's name.

Religion and belief are one of the protected characteristics in the human rights and E & D laws.

Because it is there as a characteristic it holds they same weight re discrimination as disability/race/age etc.

This means that I have to be as vehement with ensuring that someone's belief in a story is respected and not derided by others as I do for race etc.

This, to me, is ludicrous.

defuse we've had post after post from you stating you can prove your book was written by a god. Now you're saying it's just a belief no more or less than any one else's, including mine that it wasn't written by a god.

I see you have ignored my questions about how theists reconcile the huge discrepancies in their beliefs.

Your god and the god of Judaism for example did not send their only son to earth to die for our sins. The Christian god did. You can't both be right , so which one is it?

Hettie - "Brown skinned people" get a bit hacked off with people thinking they need saving without even listening to them.

Very good book published recently called "Do Muslim Women Need Saving" about this very concept. You might like to read it.

Monica, (I fully accept that I may be being a bit thick here), but what is actually being demanded of you by law, in terms of your time and energy?

defuse unless of course they are different gods, the one with a son and the one without.

Unapologetic c/p here....Johann Hari says it better than I ever could:

All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don't respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don't respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn't follow him

I don't respect the idea that the West Bank was handed to Jews by God and the Palestinians should be bombed or bullied into surrendering it. I don't respect the idea that we may have lived before as goats, and could live again as woodlice. This is not because of "prejudice" or "ignorance", but because there is no evidence for these claims. They belong to the childhood of our species, and will in time look as preposterous as believing in Zeus or Thor or Baal

When you demand "respect", you are demanding we lie to you. I have too much real respect for you as a human being to engage in that charade

That sums it up for me.

So, defuse, crescent, GoshAnne and the gazillion Christians I do battle with - I respect you too much to lie to you about what I think about your beliefs. The safety of people in our world matters more to me than your hurt feelings.

Muslim women all over the globe live with the kind of oppression unthinkable in our little patch of planet. Your squealing and demanding respect is doing them no favours whatsoever. If you're not part of the solution (which you manifestly are not) then you are part of the problem.

And I hope none of you have the nerve to call yourself feminists. The biggest threat to women & girls worldwide is Islam.

GoshAnne

It's a bit hard to listen to women who have had their heads removed for adultery and live in a country where internet communications & the media are heavily censured.

I think if I could listen to them, they'd probably tell me that they'd rather not have to live their lives like that.

You are very, very lucky GoshAnne not to live in an Islamic state or culture. I think it's pretty disgusting of you to be so arrogant as to take personally our objection to a religion that causes such immeasurable pain to women worldwide. You don't have to live with that personally - YOUR personal experience of Islam is different, lucky old you, eh?

I hope the little girl bride sold to an old man in Pakistan also understands that Islam is really a very peaceful, loving, feminist religion. Or is that only for the privileged few who don't live in a secular country like this?

Shameful.

Dione, it is the human rights laws which list "Religion & Belief" as one of the protected characteristics.

In my job I am bound to these rules and as a team leader the welfare of my staff falls to me. If I were to be made aware of bullying etc then it falls to me to address it (I happen to think that all forms of bullying are abhorrent anyway and using someone's belief to deliberately mock or undermine I would not tolerate anyway, but that is by the by).

Because religion is one of the 'protected characteristics', it is given extra weight and credence and is not just bullying, but is classed as a specific crime as it were - with the same implications attached as racism/sexism.

I am also an E & D advisor for my area, so am the one that people come to for advice re any E & D discrimination problems in the workplace - as an atheist I have to give absolute backing to someone elses belief that I find ridiculous - that really jars with me tbh.

I have to go along with their delusion because the law says I must.

Hettie - "I do battle with"

Goodness, this is beyond the point of parody. You are disagreeing with people on the internet.

You are "saving" precisely nil Muslim women by being snotty to Muslim women writing on a website.

Go and google "white saviour complex", then do the same for "Muslim feminist".

Then you can also look up Johan Hari and you'll see exactly why I care not what he says.

I am glad that you recognize bullying as bullying Monica.. However I am still failing to see how your job necessitates you to go along with someone's faith as opposed to their rights?. Surely you are not required to believe what they do in order to do your job?

Maybe it would be easier for you to tell me what you must do, as required by law, that you think is unfair.

Way to completely miss the point Anne.

But thank you for not find anything to disagree with in my posts.

"White saviour complex" because of my objection to little children being raped? Don't be so fucking ridiculous.

What does your personal feelings about Johann Hari have to do with anything? If you can't address the point he made HERE (and I pasted) then say so. You have, with your ad hominem response, done the equivalent of "Look! There's a monster behind you" and running off.

Grow up.

Muslim feminists exist.....and there are lots of them. And they are brave, brave, brave women who have my utmost respect. The fact that they have to be brave to be feminists says something about Islam, doesn't it?

No of course I don't have to believe what they believe, and it is their rights not their faith as you say, but because it is their rights as opposed to their sensibilities (iyswim) it jars with me that I am upholding someone's right to believe in a story which I think is a load of tosh, rather than dealing with them being 'just bullied'.

It is the 'putting on a pedestal' of religion that I don't agree with and I would like to see the religion characteristic dropped (from a personal, atheist point of view).

The actual reality of the situation is that it does not physically change how I would deal with things, I would still uphold that person's right not to be belittled etc and deal with it robustly, but it is the principal of a delusion holding such sway that bothers me.

What are you on about? First you state that no Muslim women should dare to call themselves feminist, now you're claiming that you know lots of them and they are very brave. Which is it?

Or is it, that you think you get to decide which Muslim woman is allowed to call herself a feminist? That's nice and not at all dubious of you.

Oh - and to all of you "feminists" falling over yourselves to be respectful of Islam....have a listen to .....he's talking to you.

Oh, and save your energy Anne - you hate PC. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caitlin, I ask again....which of my statements is a back track?

Does the child bride thing only happen in muslim countries?

The only person 'squealing and demanding' here is you.

We should be grateful to whom for living here hettie?

Sorry, only the first question was to you caitlin, the others are for hettie.

Thank you for explaining Monica. I too find myself challenged in the nature of my employment. While I find it exasperating at times, it increases my understanding in the long run, so I know where you are coming from. I am heartened to hear that in the end, your are not forced by law to compromise yourself.

I wish you health, happiness and wisdom as I contemplate going to bed.

I'm off to bed too Dione, and thanks for chatting!

Fwiw, I would just like to add that I am a total hypocrite and have listed C of E as my religion at work, simply because it is easier than doing the whole atheist thing - I have never believed but have always done that.

Also, I am not spectacularly bothered one way or another, just mildly perturbed - but it's nice to discuss stuff on here that you can't be as frank about irl.

Thanks for taking the time.

Goodnight Monica. And know that I don't think you are a hypocrite. I think you are someone who is doing what they think is right. I hope, some day, that we can all just accept eachother as fellow human beings. Your desire to speak out and up for others is what makes you special and the box we tick makes no difference.

First you state that no Muslim women should dare to call themselves feminist

No, I didn't. I said that YOU (and the others on this thread demanding "respect" for your beliefs) have no business calling yourselves feminists.

Or is it, that you think you get to decide which Muslim woman is allowed to call herself a feminist?

Well, since you ask, yes....I'll stick my neck out here. I don't think any woman trying to pretend that Islam is a religion of peace, insisting that the atrocities committed against women all over the Muslim world (and it's endemic, not a "handful") are "cultural", rather than religious and therefore should be "respected" because they do things differently there... etc have no business calling themselves feminists.

Yes - I'll stand by that. And, actually, I think such a view is racist to boot.

I think the very fact that Islam rejected outright the Universal Bill of Human Rights & decided to come up with it's own version says more about this than I ever could.

"We'll respect human rights that don't conflict with Sharia law" is the gist of it.

Sharia law, of course, which firmly has women as second class citizens & explicitly states that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man's (that's just for starters).

I just LOVE THIS.

It's written by a Muslim intellectual seeking to explain the real meaning of Surah 4:34 (for those who don't know, that's the bit in the Koran that says men can beat their wives).

But wait, he says. These people (like me) don't truly understand it at all....they are twisting things.

I quote:

First and foremost, it should be made crystal clear that if a man chooses to abuse and ill treat his wife for no good reason, but merely acts violently as a result of his own bad temper, cruel nature, impatience, dislike, arrogance, and so on – this is not condoned in any way by the Qur’an or the Prophet of Allah. Indeed, such treatment is grounds for divorce. The unfortunate abused wife may apply to a lawyer either to divorce or be divorced from her husband, in a talaq procedure, on the grounds of such cruelty. Moreover, if she was able to clearly prove her case, by producing witnesses, or showing evidence such as bruising, broken bones, or even photographic evidence of beating, in Shari’ah law her lawyer could make a good case for her to be granted redress up to the same extent as her damage – he could order a beating for the husband!

Phew - so men, at least have a GOOD REASON for beating your wife. If you don't have a GOOD REASON then that's a bad, bad thing.

Don't beat your wife merely because you're an arsehole, at least have a GOOD REASON. Because if you don't, we may allow your wife to divorce you (if there is good evidence that's it's true).

And this is from an "intellectual".

Oh man.

Oh, and in the sure and certain knowledge that I'll be deliberately misunderstood by the apologists....let me make one thing very, very clear.

The winds of change are starting to blow through Islam - because of brave, intelligent Muslims.

The vast, vast, vast majority of Muslims worldwide are peaceful people at the mercy of either their governments or loud, powerful & dangerous fundamentalists.

They are challenging age old views, they are pointing out the fallacy of pretending that the Koran is a perfect book of truth that promotes nothing but peace & love, they are seeking debate and conversation & standing up to people who think they should be murdered for their opinions. They acknowledge wholeheartedly the harm their religion is capable of causing & they want it stopped.

Know who the biggest threat to their mission is? The "How very dare you" brigade. Those who are determined to be offended by any criticism of Islam provide the oxygen needed by people who are prepared to protest & murder because of a series of cartoons, the naming of a cuddly toy Muhammed, or the contents of a book of fiction.

If any of you had an ounce of common sense or decency you'd stand shoulder to shoulder with those Muslims who are trying to make changes instead of shrieking "racism" at people like me who are doing nothing more than pointing out the bleeding obvious.

Muslims ARE by and large peaceful. The religion of Islam is not.

As I said before, fundamentalism is only dangerous when the fundamentals are. And the fundamentals of Islam & Christianity are anything but peaceful & loving.

Islam did not reject the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, some governments of some Muslim majority countries did. Can you see the difference?

The piece you have linked to is emphatically not by a Muslim intellectual.

If you look at all my comments, not once have I demanded that anyone respect anything.

Finally, do these "brave Muslims" you know all about get to have names?

I'm also doubting that these Muslims you talk of are criticising the Qur'an. The Islamic social justice movements I'm familiar with use the Qur'an and what they feel to be correct interpretations as a starting point for their work.

Also, I reject by disagreeing with you, I am somehow in anyway responsible for, or connected to any bad actions a Muslim somewhere might do. You do not get to assign collective guilt.

Islam did not reject the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, some governments of some Muslim majority countries did. Can you see the difference?

So, it's not everybody so it's irrelevant? It's called the Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. The clue is in the word "Universal".

The piece you have linked to is emphatically not by a Muslim intellectual Well, yes - you're probably right. Nothing intellectual about that ranting load of nonsense.

So how would an "intellectual" interpret:

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand

When does "if they don't obey you, strike them" not mean "if they don't obey you, strike them"?

Is "strike" a mistranslation of "kiss"? Please tell me. You're awfully good at telling me I'm "ignorant", *Anne", without feeling the need to show me where I'm going wrong (probably because I'm not).

If you look at all my comments, not once have I demanded that anyone respect anything Good for you. But you're not above branding people as "ignorant" and putting words in their mouth, are you?

Finally, do these "brave Muslims" you know all about get to have names?

Seriously? You are unaware of Muslim liberals being threatened by blasphemy laws across the Islamic world? And you call me ignorant? Take your own advice, Anne and Google.

Also, I reject by disagreeing with you, I am somehow in anyway responsible for, or connected to any bad actions a Muslim somewhere might do. You do not get to assign collective guilt

There's a difference between "being responsible for" and "not helping the situation".

You are responsible only for your own actions. But your actions include calling anyone who dares to criticise Islam "ignorant" & "Islamaphobic" which whips up the ridiculous sense of outrage these people feel when when they protest en masse for some stupid little reason - such as the naming of a cuddly toy.

But that's not just aimed at you and other Muslims....but every single person in this country who tries to excuse such events by pretending that criticism is "racist", that objectors are "ignorant" (even when they quote your own holy book at you) and Islamic violence (which is frequent and extreme) isn't really about their religion, but about Western oppression & racial inequality. Making it all our fault really.

Islam is not a race, so criticism of it cannot be considered racist*. Neither is it a person - it is a set of claims and ideas and is open to vigorous debate like any other claim & idea.

I would go so far as to say that, if anyone's racist, it's those who are shouting "racist" at those of us daring to criticise the beliefs of Islam. They've clearly decided it's all about race, haven't they, otherwise how could they possibly consider it "racist"? We know it's got nothing to do with race and all to do with beliefs....so catch up, people.

I don't hate beliefs, by the way.....we're all entitled to have them. I hate people who hurt others & if there is a particular belief that has prompted their action, then it makes sense to go after that belief & show it up for the ignorant rubbish it is. Whether that's "beat your wife if she doesn't obey you" or "God hates gays so let's hang them", doesn't matter. It's morally reprehensible not to try and dismantle such crap - what are we achieving as a species by being "respectful" & culturally sensitive when beliefs like this are aired?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if the behaviour I am objecting to is not something you personally engage in or condone, then I am not talking to you. I'm not even talking about you.

You make it about you when you when you bamboozle conversations about the harm of Islam across the globe - which is evident to absolutely everybody who cares to look - and turn it into a debate that focuses on your hurt feelings - or your entirely unwarranted assumption that it's disguised racism, or that we're too dumb to figure out that billions of people aren't all suicide bombers.

You are shutting down a conversation that we have to have - you are mistaking my intolerance for intolerable human rights abuses carried out in the name of Islam for intolerance of all Muslims everywhere. That's a mistake & it needs to be corrected.

If people like me truly are "ignorant" (as in lacks knowledge) then tell us where we are wrong. Just throwing that word into the mix & thinking that you've made any kind of point is ridiculous & unworthy of you.

Once again - Islam is not a person. It's not even a set of people. It's a narrative focused around a set of principles in a book - a book that claims to be 100% true and lays down laws about how people should live their lives. These laws do promote hatred, division, murder & human rights abuses - so when anyone follows it, we have a problem. A pretty massive one.

But it's a problem we're not allowed to talk about, because the Muslims who are enlightened enough not to take it all literally, are "offended".

And I don't like the implication that I can't talk about this because I'm not a Muslim & we should leave it up to Muslims to sort out for themselves. Why? We're all human beings and I won't divide us all up like that - a veil wearing Muslim woman should have the same rights as me, regardless of her religion. If she chooses not to exercise them, fine.....but she should have them. Very, very often she doesn't. I care...why don't you?

Because, frankly, I'm not sure you do care. If you did, you'd be shouting louder than me instead of getting huffy & pretending that I don't know what I'm talking about

*There are a lot of people in this country who are racists & who focus their hatred on Muslims. This is true, and Islamophobia is real and detestable. It's wrong not to acknowledge that, and I do.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, by a long shot. But most terrorists are Muslims. And that's a problem for all of us. It needs to be discussed, by everyone. Without the firewall of privileged Brits getting offended.