To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

written in the bible, koran and other religious texts are examples of the powers of god. (prophets) and so on

So what? There's not the slightest reason to believe they're true, so they're simply more fictional events in a fictional book.

The argument that complexity makes something true is preposterous. Lord of the Rings has appendices and maps and glossaries and even, in some of the more unreadable barrel scraping volumes, an index. It's all still made up nonsense.

then how do you explain peoples faith. the religious feelings, the feeling of being closer to god, not being close to god and so on

are they all delusional?

i have no issue with people not believing but to refer to people as being a little mentally ill, trashing someone's faith is disrespectful not to the religion but to people themselves

I am as to what the anti Q'ran/bible posters would like to see happen here. Friday, I understand that you have not the slightest reason to believe a word written in them. Others feel differently. So what to do? Ban them? Tell people not to believe? What is it you seek?

peacefuloptimist you said Seems like a lot of people are trying to put words in my mouth..

Actually only the first paragraph of my post was a reply to you and then I went back to talking to everyone. I can see why you thought it was directed at you though.

Baubles:

They say exactly the same as you, they believe their book is the word of god. What do you think of that?

I think that all religions have many things in common.

You can't exactly turn round and say they aren't true because you're all using the same argument.

I would not dream of calling anyone else's religion 'not true'. I have my beliefs and they have theirs.

DioneTheDiabolist you said "Back, what are the huge numbers of Christians and Muslims who "abuse or kill gay people or unbelievers"*

I haven't counted them, but on reflection, I'm sure you're right that not enough people are suffering and dying to really matter.

Oh Back, is that really what you thought I was saying?

I wasn't. Indeed if you had read my previous post (the one where I didn't comment on "different types of Islam") you would see that I advocate getting as many people as possible on board to combat atrocities committed in the name of religion. Or in any name for that matter.

Each murder is a tragedy that impacts many lives. The more peace loving people we get to come together and tackle this the better. I do not believe that alienating the peaceful, because you do not share their religious beliefs, is beneficial. Perhaps you can explain the logic behind your thinking on this matter.

defuse bit of a backtrack there. Earlier on you were quite adamant your book was written by a god and anyone who disagreed with you was wrong. So now it's just a set of beliefs, none of which might be true or all of which might be true.

I see you didn't answer any of my questions. I really genuinely am interested.
I

Caitlin,

What have i said in my last post that makes you say that i have back- tracked?

Dione

As an atheist I accept that the laws of this country (and others) were framed by religion. The messages given across all the religious texts are essentially a good moral compass by which a person should strive to live their life. I accept that whoever came up with these general codes of conduct (for eg the 10 commandments - not sure the ins and outs of other religions at all) appeared to have a good heart and will.

However, as an atheist I don't believe in God - it seems odd to me that grown adults do but I can appreciate that they were brought up to believe the (what I believe to be) lie that there is a god.

You asked what people want to see change? For me, it would be to stop allowing religion to have a voice in the way things must be, For eg - what a waste of time and money to have a court case to let someone wear a cross to work because they are a christian. Why should their "belief" trump a uniform policy? It does because it is a protected characteristic in E & D, so we must allow it.

We are expected as people to respect a story, that has no proof, other than its supporters' leap of faith. A story that only perpetuates because each generation brainwashes the next from birth. Children of religious followers are not left to decide for themselves with critical thought, but are fed the story as truth and immersed in it from birth.

This is why religion goes on and on, because the myth is perpetuated through the generations. I will accept without question if you want to believe in whatever you want to believe, but I will always be at a grown adult believing in a story - and it is not fair that because (general) you believe the story, I by default have to be infantilised too because the law says I must respect your belief of a work of fiction and all it entails.

Dione, where have I said that I personally have a problem with people having religious faith? All I am debating here is the notion that some people demand respect for the content of their beliefs without any proof. Ad I have said so often here that it is becoming boring, I totally respect anyone's right to believe what they want. Being asked to respect what those beliefs are, is wholly different and unconnected. No-one can ask anyone to blindly accept every subjective belief they have, that is outrageous and grotesque egotism.

I have no need for anyone to believe the same as me. I believe in the shared goodness of all people. However, I reserve the right to not respect any demand or expectation that I respect or accept anything that I find either offensive to believe in, such as racism or homophobia (not saying anyone has been either on this thread, to clarify, I know some posters will claim I am saying this if I do not laboriously explain it, sigh), or ridiculous to believe in, which to me includes a deity existing.

Saying you do not believe the same thing as someone, or that you require proof to respect that belief (not the right to hold it), is not insulting someone. It is patronising and insulting to not hold the beliefs of other adults up to scrutiny in the way one scrutinises one's own beliefs and motives, etc. I believe it is offensive to just say to someone "of course you are right" to another adult when they are making statements that cannot be proven or which sound bizarre and deluded. It does them no favours to be treated like a kid with an imaginary friend. I am all about the tough love, I'm afraid.

Also, not believing that religious texts are the word of God is not being 'anti-Qu'ran' or whatever. That kind of sloppy, childlike attempt at inferring that anyone who raises critical questions at them is a bit racist or similar should be beneath you. Especially as you keep going on about everyone being live and let live.

Monica I am with you on the money wasted on court cases where common sense should prevail..

You say that children of believers are not left to decide for themselves, but no child is. As children we are the products of our upbringing. When we become adults then we gain the powers of critical thought (although by the time I was 12 I already recognized that I didn't believe and was vocal about it) and decide for ourselves. Indeed none of the athiests I know grew up in atheistic homes.

I'm not sure how you are infantalised by my legal right to believe.

Freudian, religious belief IS a form of delusion. It is the suspension of belief and rationality and logic. It is the denial of reality. It is interpreting things that can be explained perfectly rationally, and which are experienced/have been experienced by many more others who ascribed zero supernatural or spiritual factors to them. It is the wholesale accepting of claims that make no sense and which have never got close to even having 1% of proof to back them up. And it is also a form of inculcation from one's own background and experiences; family, school, childhood, culture, etc.

The word delusional makes people think of 'loonies' from movies or serial killers, etc. (it's always interesting that when someone says they have killed because Jesus told them to, everyone says they are mad, but ehen someone says that Jesus told them they'll get over the death of their Nan, that makes perfect sense ). People are so ill-informed and kneejerk about such terms, it is truly tiresome. Someone can have a slight delusionsl aspect to their thinking that does not adversely affect them, their life, or others in any way, and which might actuslly might feel positive to them. Some schizophrenics, for example, hear voices that are positive, complimentary and motivating, and choose not to take medication because they like their voices. And in terms of what 'mental health' encompasses, it is so vast. Someone can be a bit delusional and live a great life and have a full, positive personality, just like someone can be a bit disordered about calorie couting and technically have an eating disorder, yet live an otherwise great life. Having a delusional aspect does not mean full-on psychosis, just like having asthma doesn't mean automatically dying of lack of oxygen if you run for a bus.

Oxford, has anyone asked you to say "of course, you are right"?

Every Atheist I onow grew up in Atheist home, Dione, myself included. The only Atheists I've encountered with religious parents are people born before the 70s (my own parents included). Although I'm sure people will use that to say that probably goes against arguments about free will, who knows?! Ha!

People are infantilised by laws insisting that the beliefs of others must be accepted, without any proof, because to believe in things without proof is infantilising in and of itself.

No, Dione, SIGH. I am not quoting. It is very difficult to converse with someone who cannot grasp written conversational nuances.

Oxford as far as I know there is no law that requires you to accept anyone's beliefs.

Dione, What I meant was that because it is enshrined in law that we must "respect your religion". By that, I am legally bound to respect your belief in a fairy story, this is in effect forcing me to go along with your delusion which is silly and childish to me.

(I'm saying your, but it's not you obviously - you just happen to be the one on the thread that is answering at the mo!)

I absolutely would not mock someone for having belief or faith in whatever they choose, but I resent having to go along with it too (iyswim).

I think probably most atheists grow up outwith overly religious environments tbh, obviously there are several that question and reject as they grow up (but there is so much education and information available these days which wasn't centuries ago - lack of education and geographical isolation perpetuated it in the past), but most of those who grow up in a strictly religious environment will carry that belief on into adulthood and pass on to their children.

(I just want to add as well, that when I say 'fairy story' etc, it is for want of a better description - I'm not trying to be obnoxious).

With or without proof.

xposts with Oxford soz!

Monica, what do you mean when you say that the law says you are "legally bound to respect my belief"? In real terms regarding the impact that it has on your life and the concessions you have to make?

I think a more accurate description may be holy book or something. I know that people would take less offense from that than fairy story.

But they are not holy books to a lot of people. That's the whole bloody issue here! Because some people think they are holy doesn't actually MAKE them holy. I could insist that the Chuckle Brothers are the sexiest men on the planet, but it doesn't make it true.

I'm not saying that you have to say the holy book, I'm just saying that if offense is not intended one could say your holy book or scripture or whatever Oxford.

However there is no law requiring you to call it anything. You can call it what you want in law.

Fucking hell.

GoshAnne If you're still around - the only place I c/p from is the Koran - not a website about it. Sorry to disappoint you.

I have never understood how a Muslim can sit there and claim that the Koran does not say xyz when it's plain to anyone with eyeballs that it does. We only have to read it.

The Koran says chop off the heads of apostates. The Bible says stone cheeky children & homosexuals to death. The words are there as plain as day for anyone to read - denying it & then accusing others of lying doesn't seem very intelligent to me.

Muslim & Christian fundamentalism will continue for two reasons:

a) The demand that we "respect" beliefs - and, in the case of Islam, the ignorant claim that not doing so makes us "racist". (Although why we're not accused of that with Christianity is puzzling - since most Christians in the world are not white)

and

b) the odd reluctance of (particularly Muslim) liberals to admit that the Koran/Bible is not something that should be taken literally, and might not be a perfect book of truth. If liberal Christians can do that, I don't see why Muslims can't.

I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever they like - right up until the moment that their beliefs start to hurt others. Islam & Christianity ARE hurting others. Sorry if you don't like that, but it's a fact.

I don't respect the religious doctrines Islam or Christianity. At all. I think that both represent ludicrous, backwards ideologies that have caused irreparable harm to the planet and I wish both would disappear back to the dark ages where they belong.

I think ALL Muslims & Christians are morally superior to the religion they have chosen to subscribe to. And thank goodness for that, because if they weren't, I don't think we'd have a planet anymore.

And, by the way, I am getting heartily sick of the emotional manipulation that comes into play on these threads. I was actually told last week that one poster was being "brave" for talking about her beliefs and I should respect that!

WTF?

I was talking, I thought, to an adult - not a 6 year old. If anyone is going to air their personal beliefs on a public website, expect to hear from dissenting voices. The fact that none of you can cope with criticism about your religions without resorting to RACIST! ISALMAPHOBIA! RESPECT MY BELIEFS...BECAUSE YOU'RE A MEANIE IF YOU DON'T shows pretty conclusively that you know that your beliefs are not defensible with logic or reason so you're falling back on the old "respect" chestnut.

I respect YOU. I don't respect your BELIEFS. If you can't separate yourself from your beliefs, that's your problem, don't make it mine by shrieking "racist" at me and others.

And by the way - my biggest concern with Islam is not the harm it's doing me & mine, but the harm it's doing other Muslims. Racist pig that I am - caring about the welfare of brown-skinned people I will never meet.