To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

Dione - It doesn't point anywhere good, does it?

Doyou - Quran outweighs hadith. Also, there were specific claims upthread that the Quran had ayahs mentioning child brides, so I asked for those to be cited.

Bags, i was not offended when you called me mentally ill, but i am disgusted at you making sweeping statements about entire religions.

Hopalong, having a differing opinion is acceptable. I am not so naive as to not know the affect that my statement about quran being the word of God would have on this thread. I will not back down wrt to my beliefs, they are still strong. It is the amount of vitriol that came out about islam that is still shocking - though i have come to expect it. The puberty thing, the 3 men imposing shariah law thing, the women get stoned thing, according to bags, none of that is islamophobic.

I did not at any point ask anyone to live their life in any way other than that which they choose to do. Why has the same courtesy not been extended to me? I get told that i must be stupid for believing what i believe. Its funny how despite all the intolerance on this thread, islam gets depicted as intolerant.

Thanks defuse.

I was raised in a non religious household, non religious schooling - I have never carried a belief in any deity because of my upbringing, and as such cannot comprehend why anyone could believe so fervently with no proof.

My husband was brought up to believe in god (not ott, but sunday school/church etc) and as an adult he stopped 'believing' as such, but cannot bring himself to say he's an atheist because "there might just be something, so it's best not to completely denounce it". This is because it was a part of his defining experiences growing up.

Our children have been brought up in a completely non religious way due to neither myself or my husband practising a religion, so the only influence they have is (non-secular) school; my 11 yr old does not believe at all, my 8 yr old is on the fence. Both of my children have brought the children's bible home from the school library when they were younger to 'convince' me that god is real (it didn't work, obviously!).

I told my children that I didn't believe in god, but if they want to believe then that is for them to decide, but I do believe that the basic premise of 'a good way to live' and a moral compass can be found within religion ie don't kill, respect others etc (the nitty gritty little shitty parts about hating gays etc I don't even mention because it is irrelevant, and is largely irrelevant to most of those practising that faith anyway).

I cannot get upset at other people choosing to believe or not, because that is such an intrinsic part of who they are and no amount of arguing logic can stop such a powerful belief that has been with a person forever; that and the fact that I would not want to mock someone anyway.

I do however find it difficult to understand the people who become religious as adults - that is the sort of religiousy person I would want to discuss it with IYSWIM. You have your beliefs and they have always been a part of your life so you cannot argue from any other viewpoint other than "it just is" (this is nothing against you, just explaining why I don't see the point in asking you personally to explain the logic behind your faith).

Thank you for answering my questions though

Bags, what are you on about? Who has shaken my beliefs? What?!!!

But religion does ask that, every single day. You only have to look at the current debates about gay marriage or adoption or any number of things where religion is asking for special privileges that impact on non-religious people. You, personally, might not. But religion does, as a matter of course, expect everyone to pander to their belief. And ALL religions do it. They ALL believe that they are the one true belief. And none of them any have proof! It's laughable. If you are the type of person that bases their beliefs in logic and evidence, then all religion is similarly laughable. I, personally, think that some are more ridiculous that others because of the extreme things they require of their followers. A religion that asks it's followers to die or allow their children to die is not only laughable, it's dangerous. Religion has the power to be incredibly dangerous, and that's why we question it over and over and over again, so that it doesn't get above itself and start thinking that because This God Over Here thinks x, y and z, we should all start doing x, y and z even if we don't want to and it impacts on our human rights.

Un, Gosh, I have not said that Defuse has said anyone is shaking her beliefs. That is a term I used to describe her attitude. Subjective description is not putting words in someone's mouth.

YOU, ironically, are putting words into MY mouth. I did not say that anyone with a religious belief is subnormal or mentally ill, etc. I said that believing in a deity purely because a book says they exist could be as a result of those things. That is different than saying that all religious belief is a form of mental illness, etc. If you are incapable of understanding that distinction, or unable to debate with me, or others, without trying to twist what has been said, then maybe you should step away from debate?

And Dione, I am not angry, although maybe a bit misanthropic at times. I believe that religion diminishes people, it hobbles their thinking and potential, it enshackles them, it infantilises them, and that saddens me. I am offended and upset for people that factors in their lives have led them to be capable of believing in things that are clearly impossible and untrue and do not have a shred of evidence behind them, and believing any old horseshit to support their faith. I am also offended that people want others to accept that what they say is true without any evidence to back it up, and then wail and lie that they are being told they shouldn't believe that if someone questions it. I am not offended by someone telling me they don't believe the same things as me,because I am confident in what I think, religion-wise. Anyone who truly has conviction in their beliefs shouldn't give a toss if anyone else concurs.

Well, lets look at this shall we:

??????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????

Which translits to

Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran

'Walla-ee Lam yahidhna' means those who haven't had menses yet

That whole text is giving instruction on how to divorce a female. Since divorce is based around their menstrual period, it includes those who haven't yet had theirs 'yet', ie prepubescent girls.

But isn't it strange how when 'translated' it misses this part out and heads to:
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

A lot of muslims say that translation means the quran loses a lot of it's true meaning - this being the case here as it seems to be censoring.

Defuse, making points about some negative aspects of Islam is not Islamophobic. I could come up with a list of stuff I think is dubious about Judaism too, and that wouldn't make me an anti-Semite, FFS.

A religion cannot expect respect if it wants people to pretend they know nothing about negative aspects of it. I have no problem with anyone practicising any religion - I just don't expect anyone to ask me to agree with some or any of the content of those religions.

HopAlong while this: "Religion has the power to be incredibly dangerous, and that's why we question it over and over and over again, so that it doesn't get above itself and start thinking that because This God Over Here thinks x, y and z, we should all start doing x, y and z even if we don't want to and it impacts on our human rights."

seems very noble. I'm not sure where some of the discussion on this thread fits into that. Branding people as "mentally ill" and "educationally subnormal" doesn't seem a very helpful way of achieving those aims to me.

Also when people talk about facts and rationalism without any thought to social constructivism and who gets to assert what is factual and what is not, I feel rather uneasy.

There used to be scientific "proofs" for racism and sexism, science did not overturn those proofs, moral concepts and civil rights activism did.

People can co-opt whatever they wish to suit their own purposes, I feel no better about a supposedly "rational" atheist making sweeping statements about a group of people, then I would someone doing so on religious grounds.

It really doesn't Gosh.

Oxford, misanthropy diminishes people regardless of it's origins. It closes minds and blinds you to the brilliance of people. It stems from fear, manifests as anger and as history has shown, leads to dark and fearful times.

How does your misanthropy benefit you Oxford? What do you get out of it?

Monica,

thanks for sharing. I have friends whose DH's are similar to your DH in that they dont believe but wont say it, just in case. I get it. My personal journey towards islam is one that would give the mockery brigade a field day.

My upbringing wasnt strict, your usual blend of traditional stuff along with throwing in the odd prayer is very noble and pious.

I still remember telling colleagues that i would never wear the hijab. Post 9/11 i got loads of questions thrown my way and i didnt know how to answer most of them. Started looking into islam just so that i could answer those questions. and fast forward a few years i couldnt fathom how i can say that i believe in god and i know that i should be wearing the hijab, and yet i didnt have the courage to do so. So one day i just did it. It is still the hardest thing that i did in my life That piece of cloth put things into perspective. I am not pious, nor devout. I still dont manage all 5 prayers on some days and end up making up the missed prayers. My life was still full of terrible mistakes even after i 'found god'. But my belief in god is solid.

There isnt so much a 'logic' behind my faith...it is a very strong belief. I do not impose my views on others, nor do i say that other faiths or those of no faith are wrong. That in itself would be wrong of me to say. But i will always defend my faith. To me it is the truth and it has shaped my life for the better.

I haven't called anyone mentally ill, or made sweeping statements about groups of people. But you know, while we're lumping everyone into their pigeon holes...

There seem to be a couple of different camps of people on here;

Those who think that you can believe whatever you want to believe, as long as you don't try and impose it on a secular (and rational) society. That would be me.

Those who think that people who don't use reason and logic to build every single aspect of their life and belief framework are somehow either mentally ill, damaged emotionally, brainwashed, or just stupid.

Those that think that just because they believe that something is true, even though they have no proof that stands up to any kind of testing (not just the kind of testing that you might say was in fashion or in line with society's general belief system at the minute, any kind), and that that means that they should be afforded special privileges (which often seem to involve not allowing other people to have certain rights or equality that everyone else is afforded based on their religion or sexuality or sex or race etc etc)

Those that think that just because they believe that something is true, even though they have no proof etc etc... but that don't think they should be treated as special snowflakes and happily accept that there are a multitude of belief systems in the world and that it is none of their business whether someone is a Muslim, or a Christian or a Buddhist or Hindu or Jewish (and on and on and on)

And a few shades inbetween.

I'm glad it has helped you defuse, I truly am.

Bags, you were rude and offensive and my beliefs are not shaken, figuratively speaking. If my beliefs were shaky, i would not have posted them on here! I am not afraid of expressing my beliefs - i have the ability to do so without being rude and offensive.

Making Derogatory remarks about islam make you islamophobic as do derogatory remarks about jews make you anti semitic.

Gosh and Hopalong: Yet again, for the record, I said that I think that believing in a God purely because a book says they exist, sounds mentally ill to me. That aspect. Not all religious belief. But you keep on spreading the lie that it has been claimed on this thread that all believers are mentally ill, if it suits your purpose.

Dione, being misanthropic is better than believing in imaginary, unprovable things. At least I'm not humiliating myself.

And the argument about civil rights activists proving racism wrong is a bit weak. You can't equate civil rights activists with religious believers, and that argument doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't make any real point.

No, making derogatory remarks about muslims makes you islamophobic as making degrogatory remarks about jews would make you antisemitic.

Making Derogatory remarks about islam make you islamophobic as do derogatory remarks about jews make you anti semitic

That isn't true at all.

Making derogatory remarks about Islam is attacking the religion, not muslims.

You can dislike something without disliking those who partake in it

IE:
'all jews are stupid/greedy' = antisemitic

'I find judaism quite an unbelievable religion that places too much emphasis on obedience to archaic rules' does not = antisemitic.

(For the record I don't think either of those things)

Baubles: you want to discuss your views on muslims/ islam in a workplace and then tell me if HR dont pull you up on islamophobia.

No, defuse, making derogatory remarks about a religion is not a form of racism. Making derogatory remarks about people of a religion purely on the grounds of religion is racist (Islmophobic if they are muslims). The distinction is embarrassingly clear. I have said at no point "Muslims are all this, blah di blah", because I do not think like that and am not Islamophobic or racist. Your argument is like saying someone is racist because they don't like curry.

Derogatory remarks about Jews would be anti-Semitic, yes. Not agreeing with some aspects of Judaism is in no way racist, it is merely not agreeing with people.

Is any disagreement with a religion some sort of prejudice, then? Is that how low people will sink when they have nothing left in their armoury to debate with? Oh dearie me.

defuse, that's why it is impossible to argue religion with people of faith - because it defines who they are and 'just is'.

So many people find comfort in their faith and I will never understand or comprehend it but what they believe is their business and that is just fine.

I believe most people are happy to just be, so long as everyone is living to be the best they can be then that is what's important - I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like as a Muslim following 9/11, very difficult I'm sure.

Thanks again, night night!

Hopalong, thanks for the correction.

But there is a difference between discussing Islam, as you might discuss Christianity or Hinduism, and discussing muslims or christians or hindus.

Not to mention that generally any discussion about religion is inappropriate and irrelevant in a work place. Unless we're talking about booking time off round religious festivals or making allowance due to fasting etc.

Bags, of course your views on mentally ill and the link with religions are also embarrassingly clear.

defuse Yes it would cause a problem (not in my workplace, but in others) because our society doesn't allow any negative opinion on islam in public for some reason. Too scared to offend people. Why on earth can't I slate your religion without it being racist or deemed as an attack on a person? It's ridiculous.

It's funny really because I've spoken to muslim scholars who don't give a toss, and say it reflects badly on them if people aren't 'allowed' to speak out about islam.

It is very strange, and very telling that you think people shouldn't be allowed a negative opinion of Islam. Dictatorship, censorship...