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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

999 replies

Throughthelongnight · 06/12/2013 22:20

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 08/12/2013 01:14

Others may try to humiliate me, but I am not humiliating myself Oxford. I am fine with who I am. I am fine with those who do not believe what I do. I am sad that you feel the need to view people with contemporary and distain rather than risk embarrassment.

Where do you think this stems from?

defuse · 08/12/2013 01:14

allowance for fasting......that is another thorny issue isnt it!

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/12/2013 01:15

That should be contempt.Blush

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:15

'islam is disgusting' > I am entitled to voice this view and it is not prejudice to say so.

'muslims are disgusting' > I am NOT entitled to voice this, neither do I believe it. This would be prejudice.

The funny thing is half of my family are strict muslims, but they are comfortable in their religion and do not feel they have to protect it from other people's opinion by screaming racism or prejudice when someone doesn't agree with it.

defuse · 08/12/2013 01:17

Baubles : your muslim family are tolerant, what happened to you?

HopAlongOnItsOnlyChristmas · 08/12/2013 01:17

Not really defuse (well, not for me and the people I manage). Look at the needs of the business, jiggle stuff if it needs to be jiggled. I'd make similar allowances for family commitments/other religious festivals/generally any reasonable request.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:20

defuse I tolerate other people's religions actually, I am merely engaging in a discussion. I could perhaps ask you the same question, and also ask why you can't distinguish between the religion, and the people, like my family can.

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/12/2013 01:21

Any - I wasn't equating civil rights activists with religious believers, just stating that science and the proofs deriving therefrom is not the neutral force some rationalists like to posit it as.

Also, you have repeatedly called someone commenting here mentally ill. That isn't a lie.

Anyway, since you consider holding any sort of religious faith to be demeaning and humiliating, why on earth are you claiming some big distinction with regards to the source of someone's religious faith? Are we meant to be reassured that according to you, only people who believe because of a book are "incredibly gullible, possibly mentally ill, possibly educationally subnormal, then."

And you can stop stomping your feet and suggesting I leave the thread. I'll post where I wish.

Hop - I've seen plenty of translations mention that as either "Not had menstruation", or "not had menstruation yet", it is certainly not censored. There are many reasons why someone may not have had periods, so it doesn't specifically refer to pre-pubescent brides, nor it is the verse encouraging child rape that someone up thread promised existed. We know that child brides existed both prior to Islam and for many centuries afterwards, in many cultures, but there is nothing in the Quran that specifically encourages the practice, which I think is an important distinction to make.

defuse · 08/12/2013 01:22

Hop along, would you be happy to have baubles in your workplace whose sentiments are: Why on earth can't I slate your religion (being islam) without it being racist or deemed as an attack on a person? It's ridiculous.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:27

Excuse me defuse but do NOT include me in your discussion with Hop to try and instigate something.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying it is perfectly fine to criticise religion. Just as you are fine in doing the same for atheism.

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/12/2013 01:27

Hang on a minute, where exactly in the UK can you not speak out negatively about Islam?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7495384.stm

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/islam-gets-a-bad-press-but-there-are-many-stories-our-media-doesnt-tell-8226455.html

www.livescience.com/25110-negative-messages-muslims-media.html

Most media coverage about Islam is negative.

defuse · 08/12/2013 01:28

Baubles, i could endure people attacking me, there are vile people out there who believe muslims to be mentally ill etc because they have a belief system, but I shall never tolerate anyone attacking my religion.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:29

gosh the media may be fine in doing so, but criticise islam as a sling being and you get people wrongly labelling you as racist.

Like I said before, it is extremely telling if people feel that others shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions on religion.

And I wonder if the people of this thread would say the same about comments against christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:30

single on sling

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:31

Baubles, i could endure people attacking me, there are vile people out there who believe muslims to be mentally ill etc because they have a belief system, but I shall never tolerate anyone attacking my religion

Well that is your problem, but labelling them racists or islamaphobes for having a negative opinion on Islam is incorrect.

HopAlongOnItsOnlyChristmas · 08/12/2013 01:34

Is it relevant to a workplace discussion? It's one thing to say 'I dislike islam because of x y and z' in a conversation where it is relevant and you might say similar about other religions. It's something entirely different to say 'I think Islam is a vile religion because of x, y and z'. Its also something entirely different to say 'I think all Muslims are...'

Surely its all about not deliberately making your colleagues uncomfortable. So for example I might think fasting is ridiculous (I have no feelings either way) but it would be wrong to make a rude statement to that effect. It would also be wrong for someone who was fasting to demand that no one in the office drink tea or eat hob nobs. As it stands we're nice and manage to have open conversation even though we're a mixed religion/sexuality/age/sex office. I think that's the norm. Only we only hear about the extreme cases because the reality is that office banter about GBBO and strictly and who's annoyed with Bob in finance cause he cocked up expenses again is so mundane it doesn't make good Daily Mail fodder.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:36

I dislike religion full stop. The only reason why islam is the main subject matter here is because there are people who practice it in this thread. I'd be saying the same if it were catholics

defuse · 08/12/2013 01:37

Baubles, insulting is easy, constructing an argument without the need to insult is somewhat trickier for those who feel validated by insulting others.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:40

When have I insulted you? I wasn't the one who said you were mental. I wouldn't ever say anything like that because I have mental health issues myself and don't like it being said flippantly. I have insulted islam, but that isn't you is it?

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/12/2013 01:50

DoYou - I would say it depends what your criticism of Islam is. As I said way upthread, many criticisms supposedly of Islam, the religion, use racist and orientalist terminology.

If someone's criticism of Islam seems to be that it is not British and doesn't belong in the UK, or that it is somehow inherently more savage and barbarous then it's fellow Abrahamic faiths - well that does sound rather racist, wouldn't you agree?

Also, we cannot ignore that rather prominent sections of the media criticise Islam (and Muslims) all day long. Nor can we ignore that many Muslims, especially women have been publicly verbally or physically assaulted for being Muslim. So you can understand why Muslims feel defensive.

Here is a map of Islamophobic attacks that have occurred since May 2013: maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=209838309277789756669.0004ddefdf328805d9d8d&hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=m&ll=52.683043,-2.614746&spn=6.396147,14.0625&z=6&source=embed

Tell Mama have a working definition of anti-Muslim prejudice which I think is quite comprehensive: tellmamauk.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/press/antimuslimhatred.pdf

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 01:58

Your post isn't relevant to me nor this thread, as we were labelled islamaphobes and racists by the content of our posts; none of which encompass the ideology that it doesn't belong in the uk, or that we dislike muslim people.

Like I said, people should be able to criticise the religion freely. This shouldn't lead to attacks on muslim people, but again that has no relevance to this thread as we aren't against people we are against religion as a whole.

ZingSweetPea · 08/12/2013 02:05

we know Santa isn't real

if you don't believe in God the most you can say is that you don't believe in His existence.
you can not say He doesn't exist because you have no proof He doesn't exist.

so at least there's the doubt He might exist.

so yes, completely different things.

and FWIW I'm a Christian and I know God exists, but it is not my job to prove to anyone what I know and how I know it.
(and there's no way that I will try and convince anyone to believe what I say who have already decided otherwise.
those in the know will understand "do not throw your pearls in front of swine..."
enough said)

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 02:08

Zing -

you say we 'cant say he doesn't exist because we have no proof'.
Use your own logic: you can't say you know he exists. Because you have no proof either.

I know santa isn't real just as I know god isn't real.

DoYouLikeMyBaubles · 08/12/2013 02:11

And I believe in faeries.

You can't say they don't exist because you have no proof.

I know faeries exist, but it is not my job to prove to anyone what I know and how I know it.

Does this sound silly to you? yes, it should do.

And with that, I'm out and hiding the thread. I'm glad I don't need to believe in something that doesn't exist to give my life meaning or bring me peace.

ZingSweetPea · 08/12/2013 02:14

baubles

I have proof - but as I said it's too precious to be shared with anybody, especially with those who wouldn't believe it anyway.

if you don't believe God exists you won't believe anything I say - so there's no point saying it.