To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

The quran is proof that god exists. It is a fact it can't be replicated which is proof that it is god's word

In that case does Aslan exist, because The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe says so.

You do realise there are all sorts of things that can't be replicated, it doesn't make them of god.

The thing about proof is, it cannot be subjective.

How can an adult say that their proof is a book? That'd be an embarrassing line of reasoning for a primary school child?!

Bags, for all the muslims around the world, the quran is the word of god.

Ah, I think the problem we're having here is the word proof. Defuse, you seem to mean something that convinces you. Most of us mean more like a logical chain of deduction from mutually accepted axioms, something that would stand up in a court of law. If something is proved in our sense then it has no need of faith.

Defuse, that just means that A LOT of people are incredibly gullible, possibly mentally ill, possibly educationally subnormal, then. Anyone who believes in a deity just because a book says so is not right in the head, and that goes for any and all religions, not just Islam.

Good point, catkind. Proof does not mean that which convinces, it means that which provides solid evidence that stands up to rigorous scrutiny.

To be honest, I think I have more of a reaction to people who 'become' religious in later life.

If you have grown up in a faith environment then it must become a hard-wired part of you in a way, some people choose to cast it aside as they grow up and cannot make logical sense of the belief but most still carry it as it has been a part of them for ever.

For a grown person who was previously not religious to then make a leap of fantasy and faith is really strange and does not make sense to me at all.

for all the muslims around the world, the quran is the word of god.

Yeah, but maybe they believe it for other reasons. There are no really good reasons, but perhaps they have that feeling inside that Christians describe and convinced themselves it was god speaking to them.

Anybags - Your comment about defuse being mentally ill is disgusting and vile. That is a personal attack, not just a comment upon what she has said.

There are many, many, unimpressive arguments made to support various opinions all day long on Mumsnet, yet some how it seems that only in anti-religious arguments does mental illness get invoked.

Does "playing the ball" not have any meaning to you super rational types? I have yet to see where defuse has personally attacked or insulted anyone. Is she not worthy of similar treatment, or is she somehow lower than you? If so, that doesn't sound a particularly enlightened attitude and spare me any nonsense that arguing on a website is somehow striking a great blow for human rights, so you're entitled to be as unpleasant as you wish to counter those you disagree with.

I am still waiting for anyone to prove that the Quran - yes specifically the Quran, mentions anything about child brides. You have google, bring forth the surah and ayah please.

I note as well, Kitten's descent into talking about "Violent nutters" and "all the bad Muslims in the world". That train is never late, is it? Lovely company you atheists keep. We'll soon be hearing about Muslims not adhering to "British culture" and other such niceties, as that's how these conversations usually go.

I've tried to follow the whole thread, but I'm going to be honest and say that some of the literary references have gone over my head a bit. But am I right in thinking that people are asserting that the quran is actual proof that Allah exists because it says in the book that this is the word of god, and that because no one has been able to write a chapter that matches up to a totally subjective list of descriptors (given in the book, obviously) and that can be passed off as similar enough to the book that it could be real... that that is the evidence required? That is the 'proof'?

Because that is stupid.

I am an atheist. I support your right to believe in whatever religion you want. Though I have reservations about the nature of some organised religions, I'll admit. But if you want to believe it, then that is your right. I would defend it, and your right not to be persecuted for it, with everything I have. What you can not do is expect the rest of the world to pander to those beliefs. You can believe with all your heart that x is true, but if you then want me to live my life as though x is actually true, that is where we have a problem. If you can prove (using actual scientific evidence and logic, not made up wishful thinking) that x is true, then I will listen. Until then, keep your beliefs. And keep them firmly away from me.

Catkind, i follow what you are saying. Yes, in the court of law, no one can prove the existence of God. Yes, it is a matter of faith. This has been long established. That is why i keep saying that my job is not to convince you nor convert you. The closest proof that i as a muslim can provide to those who mock, is the challenge to provide at least 3 verses imitating the quran.

See, the trouble is, many people find it irritating if someone believes in a God. I have maintained on this thread that i believe God exists and i have got comments about 3 men imposing shariah law have been jailed. Rightly so, i say. What judgements have you derived about muslims from their behaviour? What judgements should i derive about atheists based on the hostility against anyone who believes in a deity on this thread?

I am proud to hold my beliefs as are atheists. Why should my beliefs be subjected to ridicule and the atheist mockery be applauded and held in high esteem?

The quran doesn't state an age, instead it says things like 'And test the orphans until they have reached marriageable age'. Which is subjective.

Atheists don't have beliefs. That's kind of the point.

Or Sahih Book 008, Hadith Number 3311.

defuse can I ask, have you always believed God exists (from very young), or did you grow up with no religion and then make a conscious choice to believe once you were older?

Gosh, believing in a deity purely because a book says so IS a form of mental illness. Can you explain how it is not? If I told you that I totally believe Mr Tickle is real, just because a Mr Men book told me he existed, would you say I was not mentally ill? Just because some people call certain books holy, or whatever, doesn't mean their content actually makes them any more special or believable than Fungus The Bogeyman.

And can you drop this nonsense about trying to suggest that anyone who criticises Islam is racist or Islamophobic, or whatever agenda you're peddling? You're just making yourself look bad, no-one else.

Defuse, no-one is hostile about you having a faith. This has been explained to you so many times that it's become boring. People are hostile to the idea of accepting the notion that God must be real because a book says so, and other things you and others have said without any proof to back them up. Not respecting the content of a belief is different from not respecting your right to belief. But if you come out with stuff like God is real, the Qu'ran wasn't written by man, you have to expect people to ask you for real proof.

I'm not ridiculing your beliefs at all. It's the assertion that simply because you believe it to be true, it is. And when questioned you can't come up with a decent argument for why it is the truth, and why it is more true than any other religion or arbitrary belief system. And what you do offer up as evidence doesn't stand up to scrutiny, so you just dig your heels in and repeat the same thing over and over again. If you believe in Allah, and that the quran is the word of god, that's fine. No one is saying you can't believe in it. What a lot of people are saying is that it is a belief not a truth, your 'evidence' is not evidence. And that's fine, if you want to have faith then that's your prerogative. It's when you start making claims that there is actual proof that what you believe is 'the truth' and using shoddy reasoning to try and show it, people get worried. Because if we start accepting reasoning like that, then we start saying it's maybe OK to teach people that it's the truth, and maybe then imposing the bits that come along with that truth, on other people. That's why a lot of atheists argue.

BTW, I don't have any judgements about Muslims or Islam based on the actuons of the 3 men who have been jailed. I have the mental and emotional maturity to know that what they did does not represent their religion or other followers of it.

Hopalong, I did not at any point ask you to live your life in any way other than that which you choose to do. Why has the same courtesy not been extended to me?

Monica, i was raised to believe in god, but then started practising (meaning praying more frequently, wearing hijab etc) in my twenties - a bit after the 9/11 stuff.

Defuse, who has asked you to live your life in any way other than the one that you choose for yourself? If people not accepting your faith as proof that God must exist shakes your beliefs and your commitment to your lifestyle that much, then your faith must be very shaky indeed.

DoYou - Hadith is not Quran, the two are not interchangeable.

Anybags - you label anyone with religious belief as being mentally ill or "educationally subnormal" and then claim I'm making myself look bad? I don't think so, but then nor do I place any store by what you consider "looks bad".

Also, defuse has said nothing about anything said here "shaking her beliefs" so stop putting words into her mouth.

But I am letting you believe. We have freedom to practice religion. You are perfectly free to believe whatever you want. I would never deny you that. You are free to offer up unsound and shoddy reasoning as to why you believe that. But it is not fact. It is not truth. You have no actual proof. And when we start saying that it's OK to accept the kind of things you offer up as actually evidence, it chips away at the standards we hold for laws and rules. As an example, you (general you) can believe that a foetus has a soul and that to terminate a pregnancy is murder. You can believe that all you want. I'm not forcing you otherwise. I'm not forcing you to have a termination. BUT what you can't do is say that it is the TRUTH that a foetus has a soul and that no one should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy because it is the TRUTH that it is murder. We live in a society where we rely on evidence about viability and the ability to feel pain (and proven scientifically, not in those hack job videos on youtube) and other various medical evidence, put forward by scientists, to make a decision on where we draw the line on terminating pregnancies.

It's a crap example, obviously. But the point is that atheists are not asking people not to believe. They are not saying you cannot believe. They are saying that you cannot exert that what you believe is TRUE and try and make it infringe on the rights of others, or persecute other people because of what you believe to be true. It happens every single day across the world.

So much anger and misanthropy Oxford.

I know gosh but this:

^Hadiths are regarded by traditional Islamic schools of jurisprudence as important tools for understanding the Quran and in matters of jurisprudence.[5] Hadith were evaluated and gathered into large collections during the 8th and 9th centuries. These works are referred to in matters of Islamic law and history to this day.
The largest denominations of Islam, Sunni, Shi?a, and Ibadi, rely upon different sets of hadith collections.
Clerics and jurists of all denominations classify individual hadith as sahih (authentic), hasan (good) and da'if (weak).[6] However, different traditions within each denomination, and different scholars within each tradition, may differ as to which hadith should be included in which category^

suggests they work alongside the quran and are accepted amongst people of Islam.