To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

Eh? Sorry, AnyBags- not sure what I did wrong there......

Defuse- well you must have missed all of the coverage of the vigilantes in stepney, stopping people from holding hands, drinking and warning clothes that these guys don't like.

Bags, so good of you to be genuinely concerned. Please dont worry too much about my psychiatric health. I am concerned by the level of anger you hold towards people who believe in religion/ God.

Shall we also talk about the council for ex Muslims - a group formed in this country to support ex Muslims who are threatenened for leaving the faith?
And the fact that the Koran backs up this view.
shall I quote the verses?

And then shall we talk about Christians in Nigeria, Indonesia, Egypt ... And how they live in fear of their lives
Because of what the Koran says?

Defuse- so are you saying that nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that it is acceptable to have sex with pubescent, or even pr-pubescent girls? Or that Mohammad's wife was 9 when he married and 18 when he died?

Of course we are angry defuse. It's the only rational response.

You acknowledge that nobody, no expert can produce or imitate the 3 lines required. Yet you still insist that the argument is laughable.

Suppose I argue that "Fire hurts, therefore God exists"? Can you see why sticking my, or your, hand in a fire would not prove much?

Your claim is "a text cannot be copied, therefore God exists". Well, actually "a text cannot be copied, therefore it was written by God", but that depends on the existence of God".

It makes no sense as an argument. It is, in fact, laughable. You can't just assert "If A then B, A, therefore B" without proving each step. You're jumping straight to step 2.

If you could rationally prove the existence of god, you would not need faith.

I'm not angry, I am bemused and worried in equal parts. It never fails to freak me out, the sorts of things that believers believe in, or their baffling 'arguments' to prove their point fail to amuse me.

Defuse, the stuff about producing 3 lines is just snookerloopy. You might as well say "Can you make a carrot? You can't? Well, God exists then, ta-da!". It doesn't make sense. It's just gobbledegook. It's not even an attempt at an adult debate.

Curlew, my comment to you was directed at you saying that surely no Muslim in the modern world could condone marriage to, and sex with, a child. Unless you were being sarky and I missed it.

Monica, you are not being rude.

I do not question your beliefs, i accept you have them. What i dont like is when people are rude about my beliefs and try to mock those when i have accepted that they have their beliefs.

I said that i believe that quran is the word of God. I got incredulous gasps and got asked why would you believe such a thing! To which i responded that i believe because.... God says that the quran is His word. For which i got mocked and some rudeness along with being called gullible and stupid.

To which i responded that i believe it is is god's word as god says to those who do not believe in god or those who say that quran is written by man, that if you think this book is man made then write a chapter like it.

As i said, it is my belief, i havent imposed it on anyone, i have merely told those who mock me for holding that belief to go and rise to the challenge, to which i got an acknowledgement that it cannot be done but still they continue to mock my belief in god, and now i am seeing comments about all the bad muslims in the world.

Even if Allah existed and was sitting right here I'd say "Allah, clearly you exist, but the fact that there's a book doesn't prove you exist does it. And if he were intelligent enough to design a universe he'd say "Of course not. That's just daft"

No defuse, what you said is that the quran is proof that god exists. And then you said the fact it can't be replicated is proof that it is god's word. That's what people are arguing with.
You can believe it's the word of god all you like, no one will argue there, but you can't prove it.

I have proof that aliens visited the egyptians because we can't replicate what they did without modern tools.

Defuse please listen. You just keep going back to the same nonsensical argument.
The Koran is really not that special. Whoever told you it can't be imitated was being silly.
Who do you get to judge this anyway? Other Muslims.
Your faith does not do well with criticism. Why is this?
You asked who was telling me how to live. I answered with 'all the bad Muslims in the world. '
and they use the Koran to justify their behaviour.

Defuse- just in case you missed this

"Defuse- so are you saying that nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that it is acceptable to have sex with pubescent, or even pr-pubescent girls? Or that Mohammad's wife was 9 when he married and 18 when he died?"

defuse This is the thing though, I don't have any beliefs - I just don't. We are born, we live, we die - that's it.

Nobody needs to respect this because it does not affect me either way, I will still live and then die.

Whilst I would never mock someone for believing something which is (to me) incredulous, I would still be as to why an otherwise rational individual would make the leap to "make believe".

I would like to debate why, but it is taboo, because we must 'respect others beliefs' - this means that you cannot debate without upset because by declaring that you think the 'belief' is a figment of imagination you are instantly attacking the person (because they truly believe it to be true and it is such a big part of them).

Defuse, can you REALLY not understand why people might question or even mock such massive, sweeping statements with zero evidence behind them?! Do you really expect people to just go "Oh, God exists because the Qu'ran says so, well, that's that sorted then"?!

You have everything the wrong way round. The Qu'ran says that God exists, not God saying that it is his word. How can someone who doesn't exist say anything? If God has actually appeared to you, or anyone else, where is your proof? I mean, REAL proof, not just parroting "a book says so".

And the burden of proof is not on those of us who KNOW - not believe, KNOW - that the Qu'ran is not written by God to prove it's not, the onus is on YOU to prove it is. You are the one claiming bonkers, childish nonsense and demanding that it is true without having even the faintest whiff of rational thought or actual proof to it. Saying that we should prove that the Qu'ran was written by man by writing something similar, is ridiculous.

Ad now you want us to pretend that some people who are Muslims don't do bad stuff (just like people of other faiths, or no faith can do bad stuff). Any other ridiculous privilege you want? Because adults who can't cope with the basics of real life are very tiresome.

Btw, I am not specifically referring to Islam, it is religion non-specific for me.

Defuse obviously hasn't watched or read the news lately. Arrests have been made because people have been trying to enforce Sharia law. Attacking men who were having a drink, abusing a couple holding hands in the street...

Don't deny there are bad things going on because of Islam, and I won't deny that there are good.

Same goes for Christians/Catholics too.

Yeah, all religion has its moments, but I think Islam is having a doozy at the moment.

Arrests have been made because people have been trying to enforce Sharia law. Attacking men who were having a drink, abusing a couple holding hands in the street...

Not just arrested, but convicted and sentenced, as it happens.

Good. But it is still intimidating. I don't feel free to say what I really think because of violent mutters and I know I'm not alone in this.

Monica, in that case i would still happily say, you have your beliefs and i have mine. You are entitled to your beliefs as i am mine.

Catkind, i am a muslim and this is my belief. The quran is proof that god exists. It is a fact it can't be replicated which is proof that it is god's word.

That is my strongly held belief. People may ask how i make that leap, and that it is a man made book, kittens has very recently stated it can be imitated. my answer is simple: (from quran)

“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

My whole belief system is not based on my own logic, it is the quran. I make no apology for it. I have not mocked, nor have i been rude about any religion or atheism, but its funny how that will never be reciprocated when talking about atheism vs religion.

The quran also says:

Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Nor will I worship those whom you have worshipped;,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.