Is it me or the landlord?

[buddyfingy]

This is my first thread on aibu, please don't flame me too much!
My DP and I currently rent a one bed flat above a shop. The landlord has his office in the shop so is there a lot, we see him often and do have a generally good relationship (despite him asking us to have the heating at 5 degrees constantly in the winter
This week has been a rather difficult one for a DF of mine. Her boiler has broken with a massive delay on the new parts being installed, her DS was rushed off to hospital in an ambulance with difficulty breathing and has been very poorly, her long lived washing machine has died and her husband was assaulted and needed surgery on a badly broken arm. She has had a dreadful time in short. I offered to help in anyway I could so took home washing to do for her and also let her pop by a few mornings to use the bath for her and her son.
My DP received a text this afternoon from the landlord saying that he doesn't want her doing washing and using the bath and that it is costing him money with her doing that. Fair enough, the rent that we pay is 'all in' but after speaking with him today I cannot understand how he doesn't see it as helping out a friend in need, it is not a regular occurrence and DP has offered to pay him £10 or however much 3 baths and 2 washes. I finished the conversation by saying that I hope if he ever finds himself in a difficult situation that his friends would always support him and not turn him away, which is what he is essentially asking. How could anyone deny a friend with a two year old child basic help like clean clothes and a hot bath?
AIBU and sorry if this is a bit long! Don't want to drop feed.

LessMiss, no it is the landlord who is not being reasonable here. The right to quiet enjoyment etc. is a basic one and contract terms can't override it. This is the case for any clauses in a tenancy agreement which would be deemed unfair or against standard tenancy rights in law: it's a basic tenet that you can't sign these rights away. Eg. if the landlord wanted to put a clause in your lease saying you were responsible for having a safety check done on the boiler, whether you signed the lease or not it would still be an illegal clause and couldn't be enforced. It wouldn't matter how reasonable or not the landlord was in that case, or whether he was a mate; it would still be an unenforceable clause and could be regarded as if it wasn't there.

I think lots of people get confused here about reasonableness, letting from mates, small businesses trying to make a living, etc - the legal position is pretty clear. Letting property is a business transaction not a favour to the tenant; it has to be done according to law, and anyone who doesn't do it properly is not being reasonable. You wouldn't (hopefully), excuse someone fiddling the books of their business or evading tax because they were doing it for a mate, and letting properly is no different.

If you had a baby there would be more washing/ more baths etc it's nothing to so with him who comes and goes and how much water you use.

My children are not on my tenancy but they lives here and add to wear and tear. My dogs however are on the tenancy ha

All in rentals are common in shared houses when each tenant is on a separate lease, particularly in student houses.

If the electricity meter and water is combined he must be accounting for a proportion of it in his shops accounts. But he must be paying commercial rates for these. It sounds all very complicated.

I rent out a shop with a flat above but they have two separate meters.

WooWoo:

Are you really so naive to not be suspicious if a trades person asks for cash.
My XMIL was always pleased to get a big discount from plumbers etc for paying cash so the 'taxman doesn''t get to know about it'.
She's even have conversations with them about it.

No, I'm not naive, I'm just not looking for the worst in people all the time.

My mum pays tradesmen in cash because she hasn't figured out Internet banking yet. She still uses bankers drafts for any large payments she has to make to tradesmen, but up to around £500, she chooses to pay in cash. What the tradesman does with that cash afterwards is up to him, but I wouldn't automatically assume that he was going to avoid paying tax on that cash just because he accepted payment in a way that was most suitable for the customer.

If he had no facility to accept payment by bank transfer or cheque, then I might be suspicious, but as long as he was insured and provided a good level of service, I wouldn't consider it to be my business how he manages his finances.

Do you suspect all cleaners of avoiding tax as well?

No doubt not all cleaners register their business, take on PL insurance and fill in tax returns.

Maybe some earn below the tax threshold anyway.

I'd move. You're entitled to live in comfort - including doing as much washing as you need to and heating your home to a comfortable temperature. You should also be allowed to have visitors. And whether or not they take a bath / do washing while they're visiting shouldn't be any of his business. How does he know what she did while she was with you? I'd feel really uncomfortable if I thought anyone - landlord or otherwise - was spying on me to the extent that he knew when a non-resident was visiting! Makes me feel really uneasy.

You have done nothing wrong. And I don't think you should pay any extra for the "extra water" your friend has used. It's rediculous, you could easily have used that yourself just by deciding to wash all of yor bedding and towels separately and having 2 showers / baths a day.

I'm sure you must occasionally go away, weekends / holidays, I bet he doesn't offer you a rebate on those weeks when nothing is being used does he so it's all swings and roundabouts.

Just ignore, and don't engage any further conversations about how you live in the flat, bar illegal activities it's none of his business and nothing you have to answer for

it is quite refreshing to see that others have noticed the knee-jerk 'all landlords should be shot' reaction that comes up on mumsnet.

That said, this landlord has put himself in a vulnerable situation by including the bills, and it is certainly completely unreasonable to ask for heating to be set at 5 degrees. This effectively means no heating which is NOT allowed. It shouts 'naive landlord' at least.

the tenant is trying to help out by paying the extra costs caused by extra people using the facilities.

to avoid all this in future, the deal should be renegotiated so that the tenants pay for utilities. That way they don't have any of this and have control over their own bills.

we await with interest to find out if there is actually separate metering. Or if there is the gas safe certificate and deposit protection.

Been a tenant, now a landlord.

I've lived in 'all-in' rented accommodation for several years, 2 different properties. I've never been told what temperature to have my heating at or that visitors can't have a shower or how many loads of laundry I can do. If your ll needs to increase your rent to cover increased costs then he should do so. You're entitled to quiet enjoyment of the flat. That includes having your heating at a reasonable temperature (so don't make it a sauna but warm enough that you can't see your breath turn to steam when you're inside!) and to have visitors who will obviously make use of the facilities. If you had someone practically living with you that would be unreasonable. That's not what you're doing so ll is unreasonable not you

Move. You will not be able to put up with this in the long run.

I had such a deal at some point in my life, and me and the other tenants found out the LL would come in as soon as we were out to switch off all appliances, boiler, etc. to safe their cost.

It was so intrusive but they did not see it that way as the rent was inclusive and they wanted it keep their bills down.

I would just ignore him and no I wouldn't offer him a tender either, you're friend will soon have her boiler fixed and this will blow over

YANBU to a bit annoyed though but forget about it

I was intrigued to note that somebody has decided that the landlord is tax dodging because he "...can write off your full rent as a business expense, and he has just realised that it is costing him more than he is saving."

The rent is income in the hands of the OP's landlord. Since when was income a business expense? I've only been a chartered accountant for 14 years, so this quirk of the tax legislation has clearly passed me by, but I look forward to writing income off against income in future tax years.

Back to the OP: I think your landlord has overreacted rather, but in principle he's right. Is this much different to a shared flat in which one flatmate moves in a boyfriend who pays no rent but takes two baths a day and sits indoors with the heating blasting all day? The other flatmate would be annoyed, and rightly so. The fact that the landlord is idiotic enough to suggest that you live in temperatures of 5C doesn't change things.

Its your home,you pay what he asks so no yanbu.I think id be pretty uncomfortable with soneone being so involved.When I had landlord we rarely saw him.

Financeprincess: This is not a flat share so yes, very different!

OP is either in breach of her tenancy agreement (unlikely) and the LL should deal win it appropriately (ie not text) or not in which case he should not mention it!

Has it been ascertained if the property belongs to landlord or council?

Friend of mine had this type of deal whilst at Uni, turns out landlord illegally sublet property & caused her huge issues.

5c heating?? Time to move I think

YANBU. And I'm surprised anyone thinks the landlord being reasonable. Unless there is something in the tenancy regarding visitors it is nothing to do with the landlord. He has offered all in so that's what it is. If he finds that at the end of the contract period he has paid out more than he would have liked then he could put the rent up, but he has no say over how you use the property in the meantime (unless illegal etc).

I know that it isn't a flat share, but the principle is the same.

If the OP decided to turn the heating up to 35C, to leave it on all day and have all the windows open, to run all the taps 24 hours a day and to have every electrical appliance running at once, would people still think that it was none of the landlord's business and that he should just suck it up? Of course not.

I think the landlord should have let this incident go, since it's a one off and probably negligible in monetary terms, but he clearly set the all-in rent in the anticipation of a particular level of utilities usage by a defined number of people. Varying that significantly isn't fair on him.

I think the OP has said somewhere upthread that there are no separate utility meters for the upstairs rented property. And insisting that the heating is set at 5 deg is not 'naive' - it is illegal, unreasonable, and stingy beyond belief.

Why do landlords so often get a pasting on these boards? Because, sadly, experience tells many of us (I am guessing the majority) on here who have rented that a good proportion of landlords show an appalling lack of regard for tenants' wellbeing, health and financial situation. Of course not all landlords are bad - some are superstars I'm sure but why do I never ever seem to have dealings with those ones?

The sector is poorly regulated in England, although things have improved marginally since the introduction of the deposit scheme arrangements that have been in place since 2003.

YANBU, the LL is.

Unless there was something in the contract explicitly stating how much energy you were allowed to use (which of course there wouldn't be) then he simply cannot dictate to you in this way.

I also suspect that he should not be supplying a residential dwelling from a commercial meter.

I would carry on as you are, do not offer him anymore money whatever you do, and maybe think about moving.

It sounds as though the relationship could break down over this conflict. If you want the LL to remain a mate, then don't renew the contract when it expires. Even though it may be cheap, you're "paying" in other ways (and if he has learned anything from this incident, he will put the rent up anyway.

He evidently mispriced the rent/utilities and is now probably getting very stressed about that. Meanwhile, you have to live in the place and will no doubt get a bit stressed about costs, too. And you will probably remember all you've spent on redecorating, and feel you are "owed" something for that investment, even though it wasn't contractual and you haven't any legal right to have that investment acknowledged. You see how problematic the mixed relationship becomes? Those stresses and resentments on both sides could send any friendship straight down the drain, eith the LL/tenant relstionship, such that neither side fulfils its obligations to the full.

Well saying you cant do an extra wash for a friend is kind of saying you have a maximum amount of washing loads youre allowed to do

WooWooOwlFri 06-Dec-13 10:14:26

No, I'm not naive, I'm just not looking for the worst in people all the time.

WHAT You seem to have no problem with this when you are on the benefit threads!

Landlords have a responsibility to keep the property in a safe and decent condition. That includes protecting the tenants from "excess cold" by providing a reasonably efficient heating system. If the landlord insists on the flat being cold then that's a hazard for which he could face enforcement action from the local authority.

Of course, when you're dealing with people you know, family friends etc, the legal position might not be that relevant. You might not feel able to call in the council to inspect the property and take enforcement action. But it's worth at least understanding the legal position.

The Shelter website is useful, or go to your local authority website and look for "private sector housing".

Right I am back. Had a good chat with Landlord and he has admitted that he overreacted to DF coming over for 3 baths and 2 washes and that it won't be necessary to reimburse.
We have said that we want separate metering to be installed as soon as is possible (probably first few months of next year) as we can't have these problems again. As I mentioned in my OP, we do have a generally good relationship with Landlord which I don't want to spoil. We are by no means mates. What I mean by good relationship is that we always pay our rent on time and he doesn't quibble over how many pictures we hang (although does seem to count how many times the toilet is flushed!)
Doingakatereddy - Landlord owns the property.
Slim - that is probably the thing that makes me the most uneasy, apparently one of his employees saw DF coming out of the flat and 'reported' on us. Feels a bit odd to be being watched.
Limited - he does contact us more than I am completely comfortable with. In other rentals I have never even seen the landlord unless there is an issue, but this one seems to think that it is acceptable to contact us whenever he fancies (usually to tell us about the gas bill). The bit that annoys me the very most is that he will not speak to me if there is anything he wants to discuss - he will only speak with DP. He has been reminded before that we are both on the lease but will totally ignore me during discussions which enrages both me and DP.