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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is it me or the landlord?

106 replies

buddyfingy · 05/12/2013 20:29

This is my first thread on aibu, please don't flame me too much!
My DP and I currently rent a one bed flat above a shop. The landlord has his office in the shop so is there a lot, we see him often and do have a generally good relationship (despite him asking us to have the heating at 5 degrees constantly in the winter Hmm
This week has been a rather difficult one for a DF of mine. Her boiler has broken with a massive delay on the new parts being installed, her DS was rushed off to hospital in an ambulance with difficulty breathing and has been very poorly, her long lived washing machine has died and her husband was assaulted and needed surgery on a badly broken arm. She has had a dreadful time in short. I offered to help in anyway I could so took home washing to do for her and also let her pop by a few mornings to use the bath for her and her son.
My DP received a text this afternoon from the landlord saying that he doesn't want her doing washing and using the bath and that it is costing him money with her doing that. Fair enough, the rent that we pay is 'all in' but after speaking with him today I cannot understand how he doesn't see it as helping out a friend in need, it is not a regular occurrence and DP has offered to pay him £10 or however much 3 baths and 2 washes. I finished the conversation by saying that I hope if he ever finds himself in a difficult situation that his friends would always support him and not turn him away, which is what he is essentially asking. How could anyone deny a friend with a two year old child basic help like clean clothes and a hot bath?
AIBU and sorry if this is a bit long! Don't want to drop feed.

OP posts:
paxtecum · 05/12/2013 21:43

Even though the flat has planning permission and you pay council tax he may not be declaring the rent as income.

conclusionjumper · 05/12/2013 21:45

but he just wants to make it clear that it can't go on

No, he has no legal grounds on which to make this clear at all. The OP has the right to peaceful enjoyment of her flat, and that includes the bath.

Original poster
buddyfingy · 05/12/2013 21:51

Pax - I think I may well do that! It would be a lot more convenient surely...
Thank you all for the advice, at the renewal of the contract we will probably suggest that it gets split to avoid this in the future.
In the meantime I will ask the ll how many times a day the toilet is flushed...how often we boil the kettle etc!

OP posts:
traininthedistance · 05/12/2013 21:52

Woowooowl etc if the tenancy is a standard tenancy, the OP pays council tax etc. then whether bills are included or not the landlord cannot specify how the tenant uses the facilities as long as the use isn't criminal, dangerous or causing damage. It doesn't matter who thinks he's reasonable or not, the tenant has legal rights which are apparently being infringed here.

OP if you have a tenancy agreement and pay council tax as a separate dwelling you have the right to "quiet enjoyment" which means the landlord cannot dictate what you do with your heating, whether you can offer a friend a shower etc. Your landlord is in breach of standard tenancy rights by trying to dictate this. If he is paying utilities then more fool him (and I agree that this sounds dodgy, usually if you pay council tax as a separate dwelling you pay your own utilities - as someone said above, it sounds like there's some double dealing going on somewhere, maybe with the utilities for his business).

You should get some legal advice (CAB?) and quietly ignore him.

Original poster
buddyfingy · 05/12/2013 22:04

Train that is perfectly succinct and more articulately put that I would have done! I will pop along to the cab perhaps, especially as a a couple of posters have mentioned their doubts up thread.

OP posts:
whois · 05/12/2013 22:11

train word!

WooWooOwl · 05/12/2013 22:12

Right, legally he cannot specify how the tenant uses the facilities. All he could do is raise the rent with sufficient notice at an appropriate time.

But this sounds like a lot of people who are friends, one of them being a small business owner who's renting a flat to a mate, asking the mate not to let the bills run up for other friends who are not part of the deal.

I don't know why people are so quick to paint the picture of the evil landlord.

I'm not completely skint, but I'd be thinking about the financial consequences of extra on the electricity and gas bills if I was helping a friend out in that way for more than a couple of days. I think most people would at the moment.

paxtecum · 05/12/2013 22:14

Presuming he isn't declaring the rental income, then he will also be putting the whole of the electricity and water bills as business expenses, claiming back all the VAT and thereby paying less tax on his own business.

QuintessentialShadows · 05/12/2013 22:15

"I don't know why people are so quick to paint the picture of the evil landlord."

Because he has asked his tenants to not heat the flat above 5 degrees in winter? Hmm In Norway, where I am from, you see rain turn to snow at 3 degrees, so only two degrees less than the temperature the landlord dictate they keep, inside their home.

paxtecum · 05/12/2013 22:16

WooWoo; cross post.

Smart LL or tax dodger?
OP pays him cash, at his request.
Dodgy?

QuintessentialShadows · 05/12/2013 22:16

I am fully aware that it is much colder up in the clouds than on the ground, but it is still just 3 degrees, and snowing, when you are on the ground.

Ragusa · 05/12/2013 22:19

Absolutely reeks of tax evasion. Cheeky bleeder!

Caitlin17 · 05/12/2013 22:42

I've never come across all in rentals except in leases by companies leasing flats in purpose built student blocks. The leases I have seen for them state specifically the utilities are included on the basis of a reasonable usage, which might specify an amount but the landlord reserves the right if there is excessive usage to recover the excess. It makes sense in this situation since the landlord of a purpose built block will find it easier to deal with just one bill and will probably be on a commercial rate.

It makes no sense here other than landlord has worked out what he thinks you will use, is charging you that( and maybe a bit more ) and then putting the whole bill through as a deductible expense out of his business income.

A landlord has no right to dictate you can't have visitors or occasional over night guests.

If the lease doesn't specify what proportion of rent is attributable to fuel and that he has the right to recover excessive use he's on a hiding to nothing.

Shenanagins · 05/12/2013 23:37

woowoo I'm a landlord and i think that in this instance the landlord is overstepping the mark given there is nothing in the lease. They are not necessarily evil just daft to have an "all in" rental agreement.

Caitlin17 · 06/12/2013 00:15

Shenanigans as I'm I and whilst my properties aren't over a shop there is no way I'd not want the utilities in the tenants' name. The only reason for doing this is he will be claiming the bill against his tax.

nippysweetie82 · 06/12/2013 00:39

I would search for the hidden camera. How did he know your friend was using the bath?! Did she go in looking manky and leave with her face all shiny and clean?! LL sounds like a nosy bastard.

Bogeyface · 06/12/2013 00:53

The all-in is a tax dodge as he can write off your full rent as a business expense, and he has just realised that it is costing him more than he is saving. Oh dear, what a pity, never mind. All in is all in, help your friend and have your heating at whatever temp you like!

Bogeyface · 06/12/2013 00:53

How did he know your friend was using the bath?

If he was downstairs then he would have heard the bath emptying.

whois · 06/12/2013 01:09

Some landlords who rent, say, a four bed house out to four different people on a per room basis prefer 'all in' rents as otherwise it's harder to get people in the rooms and the utilities can end up a right mess with people moving in m&s out a lot.

If I were you OP I would take to having multiple long an hot baths a day :-)

LessMissAbs · 06/12/2013 08:57

All inclusive rents are very common in a city I lived in. In fact, potential tenants seem to expect or prefer them there and often ask if utilities are included in the rent!

Mumsnetters always treat landlords like modern day scrooges, out to swindle and wangle money from innocent tenants. From the above, apparently this landlord is a pervert who films his tenants in the bath, spies on them and evades tax, while trying to freeze them half to death.

Its a bit OTT, you know?

And yes, the landlord can insist his property is used for the purposes it is leased. A landlord can also insist overnight visitors are kept to a minimum. Even if it is not in the lease, because a lease is delectus personae and therefore based on the identity of the tenants involved and no-one else, such actions are outwith the terms of the lease. Often such things come down to a test of reasonableness, and I don't think you are acting reasonably in terms of your lease, particularly because its all inclusive.

Yes, it seems mean, but the landlord initially at least wouldn't have known how long this arrangement had been going on for, presumably wouldn't have known the unfortunate back story about your friend, and multiple washings and baths can cause electricity bills to skyrocket. Yes, I agree it does seem mean, but equally you are in breach of the terms of your lease and since bills are included in your rent, I think you acted a bit crassly. Could you not have simply said to him first, since he lives below, that a friend who was experiencing difficult for x reasons needed help for a few days, instead of all this?

paxtecum · 06/12/2013 09:11

LessMiss: I live in a rented house.
If you consider OPs actions to be crass then I am very grateful that you are not my LL.
MY LL is a very reasonable person

You have not commented on the dodginess of LL asking the rent to be paid in cash or do you think that is normal practice for a LL.

Shenanagins · 06/12/2013 09:14

caitlin17 may i ask why as for me i would never include them in the rent ( its not common practice in this city) as i could be left with some very high bills if the tenants use them excessively.

WooWooOwl · 06/12/2013 09:19

Paying the ll in cash would seem like a bigger problem to me if he wasn't running a shop from the premises underneath the flat. Presumably people pay him in cash for whatever he sells there, but that doesn't get him accused of tax dodging.

He has easy means to put rent cash through the books through the rest of his business, so I don't think it's fair to automatically assume he's tax dodging.

And while he may have been a bit stupid over the heating at 5 degrees thing, Op says she has the heating at 'a very comfortable 17' after they put a foot down, and says that they have a generally good relationship.

So I still think that people are too keen to jump to negative conclusions about people just because they have the temerity to own property.

paxtecum · 06/12/2013 09:30

WooWoo: It is more than stupid to ask for heating to be set at 5 degress.
It is downright unreasonable.

Asking for £££s to be paid cash each month for rent is not quite the same as someone buying something for £10 in a shop.
It is suspicious and therefore very fair to assume he is tax dodging.
Most LLs prefer DD payments.

These days most purchases in shops over £10 are done by card.
Most people don't go shopping with a wad of cash.

WooWooOwl · 06/12/2013 09:35

These days most purchases in shops over £10 are done by card.
Most people don't go shopping with a wad of cash.

So what?

How is that at all relevant to the fact that the landlord has the means to legitimately put cash through the books and may well be doing so?

Paying rent in cash is unusual, but it doesn't automatically follow that a landlord who is paid in cash is undoubtably tax dodging.

Are you this suspicious of every cleaner and every tradesman that accepts, or even prefers cash?