To think that HV's should not be doling out 'advice' on school admissions and to be livid about the implications

[spritesoright]

Sorry, this is long.
I recently took DD to her 2Y health visitor checkup. We got the usual advice about vitamin D, teeth brushing, etc. Then near the end she asked me if I had looked into schools at all. We have moved recently and chose a house within walking distance of two 'satisfactory' schools but beyond this I have not done anything.
I actually believe that home influence is more important and as long as DD is at a 'good enough' school nearby she will do fine with our support.

The health visitor then went on to strongly urge me to make further considerations and suggested checking the catchment distances, attending church if we're religious or MOVING closer to a good school.

I was a bit flabbergasted.

Initially I thought she was just trying to be 'helpful' but a friend got the same lecture at her HV appointment so it seems to be standard in ours and surrounding councils as advice.

I can't help thinking that the implications of this are that if we don't get DD into a nearby school we aren't being proactive enough so it's our fault as parents. At least that's what the council are trying to say.

In reality we live in a borough that had a massive birth boom in 2011 when DD was born where schools are already oversubscribed and I can see the council doing little about it. I suspect they are constrained by the coalition's emphasis on free schools and academies (don't get me started).

I checked the council primary admissions guide online when I got home where it urges parents to 'choose realistically' based on distances but even though we are only a few minutes walk from nearest schools, DD would not have been admitted to either this year based on distances they provide.

Other nearby schools are Catholic or C of E and given that we're atheists that's not going to happen.

So, AIBU to think that I shouldn't have to open my own free school, convert to a new religion or pay twice the amount for a house next to an 'outstanding' school in order to get my child into a primary school!?

I know the council has a responsibility to school her somewhere but what I fear is that it will be 5 miles away (in london rush hour traffic) or in some temporary trailer in a parking lot somewhere because the council are not being proactive enough and instead trying to pawn the responsibility off onto parents?

I welcome your thoughts.

Try telling them you intend on home educating anyway until year One......I swear mine actually started foaming at the mouth.

The school situation is very difficult.

Sorry, posted too soon. It is crazy in some areas, and yes, parents move or 'find religion' all of a sudden when they have a child or live in poverty to pay fees. There are only so many places to go around.

There's lots of issues in your post. Sounds like it's not the HV's fault, poor thing, she was just trying to give you the heads up, I guess before you get to that point. I don't know a solution for you really, other than moving and campaigning heavily. Our school is being enlarged from 3 form to 4 form and another school down the road is also being enlarged, so it is happening NOW, but I guess it depends on the council/ LEA. Ours is a heavily Labour council.

So your AIBU isn't actually about your HV's advice (which sounds spot on), but that she should have to give such advice at all?

I wonder if she's sees lots of parents who have been unhappy with the school they have been allocated ... and is just trying to help, or at leats to make you aware that it's a potential problem. Based on what you've said, if she'd said nothing, you would have potentially ended up with a school miles away as you coudln't get into your closer schools. Now you actually have the luxury of time to do something about it.

I think she was trying to be helpful. Many parents dont start considering the schools issue until application deadline is looming, and by then it is too late.

She possibly also knows that you have just moved into the area, and the only schools near you are just "satisfactory", which in real terms is pretty close to "failing", rather than actually satisfactory as per the real linguistic meaning of the word.

How was she to know you are atheist and therefore principally against letting your child benefit from what is often a very good education?

Every year there are people on here who are taken by surprise by school admissions, thinking admission was automatic or dependent on things like putting your child's name down at birth rather than completing a form by a deadline. So in that sense, I think it's great that the HV is actively bringing it to people's attention at an early stage.

Merry, I wasn't blaming the HV personallly. This is clearly information she's been told to dole out and I was of course polite and receptive (as possible) during the appointment. The fact that a friend got told the same thing suggests that this is now 'official advice' and that's what gets me.

I understand there are individual strategies I can take up but in reality this results in parents clambering over each other and getting anxious about something they shouldn't have to.

The council should be taking care of this and the coalition should never have introduced such ridiculous policies in the first place.

Positive to hear that your LEA is doing something. Maybe I will start campaigning.
As for home educating , dealing with a 2 year old at home suggests to me that I would never have the patience or stamina for this. Trying to get her to put on her shoes is currently stressful enough.

I'm not sure what the problem was with the HV advice. She pointed out that you need to check into catchment distances etc. as you most likely aren't going to get a local school place and you need to start thinking about that now and getting a plan in place, you have checked and she was correct.

It's nothing to do with the HV if there are not enough school places available locally, I don't think her advice has come directly from the council just that she has seen other families go through the process.

I think she is being helpful. You have now discovered that in all likelihood you wouldn't get a place at the two walking distance schools and they are only satisfactory, so we aren't talking people pulling out all the stops for outstanding schools here.

Sorry, I don't see what the 'luxury of time' is going to get me. We cannot afford to move and I don't see why we should have to.

And I am not 'principally against letting my child benefit from a very good education'. I am principally against being a hypocrite and attending church when I am not religious. It is the religious schools who discriminate against children from non-religious backgrounds.

Other than home schooling, what practical plan am I supposed to put into place?!
The fact is that the council needs to be doing something about this and instead of doing that they are deflecting their responsibility onto parents and justifying this through health visitor 'advice' which is totally unrealistic and unjustified.

I really don't understand this system. what was wrong with the old catchment system which is still used in Scotland. all kids are entitled to a place at either their catchment state school or RC school. you can apply out of catchment but may not get.

This system of supposed parental choice is a nonsense. parents now seem to have less choice and a scramble to get their kids into any school.

Whereas a system where you are guaranteed your local school encourages parents to get involved with the school, to make it better if need be and the kids meet the kids who live near them.
yes people do still move if they can afford to but not that many. and the onus is then on the council to make all schools good rather than on the parents to get their kids into the right school.

But somehow you tell people you are giving them choice...giving them a lottery shot at the best school and enough people go along with it that the system stands.

Meh! Sounds like she was trying to be helpful

It's refreshing to hear of a HV who actually cares. Some of the ones round here can't wait to get to the next person on their list.

I think you need to meet your local councillors, local MP, whatever. Find out when their consultation times are (library should know?). Find other places that are doing school expansions. I live in Newham and I think we have the highest number or density of under 5's in the UK (which then translates into over 5's!). School expansions are necessary.

There is still a catchment system, Mrs Mink, but the catchment can get smaller, I think, if there is a high population of children. Our catchment area is very small, basically a 5 min walk and any further you are out of it.

Obviously its the politics you have an issue with rather than anything else but I'm afraid thats just the reality. I think places at primary schools (at least the good ones) have become increasingly over-subscribed in recent years (regardless of who is in power) and as previous posters (and the HV) alluded to, people are going to some lengths to ensure they get places. Unfortunately, you're not going to change that in 2 years (when you have to apply for a place for your DD) so she was letting you know what a bun fight it is.

I am normally the first to have a dig at HVs, I've made a formal complaint about mine in the past, but I don't think she was in the wrong here. I'm not sure the fact that 2 people have had conversations about school places makes it official advice, but wouldn't you rather know? If you were going to end up with a school which wasn't a few minutes walk away, or was not a 'good' school, wouldn't you want a heads up on that?

p.s. not that it's an entirely helpful point at this stage - but if you only moved recently, and have a 2 year old, did it not occur to you to check catchment areas / admissions policies for the local schools before you bought?

MrsMink that's exactly what I meant. I would far rather invest my time and energy in a 'good enough' local school than be made to feel responsible for scrambling to get my child into any school.

It's not a catchment system if the boundaries keep shrinking, suggesting that there just aren't enough schools in total and they are not planning sufficiently about where to put them.

And no Mandy, that's not really helpful. I could have done what other parents I know did who paid twice the price for their house as we did so they could get into the 'best' school in the area.

And it's exactly the kind of blame you're espousing that I feel the HV advice is contributing to. No amount of anxious scrambling is going to change the fact that there aren't enough schools and by telling people that it is their personal responsibility to do something they are just fuelling anxiety.

so have you worked out where your daughter would have got into last year? They do of course have a statutory duty to provide enough places (whatever that means! ). It sounds awful, the school places thing in London, makes me grateful I don't live there (another unhelpful comment).

I get what you are coming from spritsoright - the fact that the HV is advising you to move house or get religion implies that the parents have a responsibility to go to these lengths for the child to have a school place, and even if you are ok with a satisfactory walking distance school you can't expect to get that if you are in the "wrong" place. It is bonkers.

There are threads on MN every year from people who missed deadlines/weren't aware of how the schools application system worked and who complain that surely their HV "or someone" should have flagged it up to them. Good on your HV for making an effort.

Just because you can't or won't act on her advice for whatever reason doesn't make her wrong for giving it. For all she knows, you could be renting and perfectly able to move in time for the deadline. Or you could do one of the other strategies to get into a school that others use: pay, pray, HE etc. Many things that don't involve opening your own school.

It sounds like it's not a matter of good enough vs outstanding but more the risk of the 'schools black hole' in which case it's no good being wistful about Scotland and catchments in the good old days or angry at the council (well, it's fair enough to be angry, but it's not going to solve the problem). In densely populated areas, there simply aren't enough local schools. Your HV is just helping people to be aware of that in advance so that you don't become one of the people who post on here because they have to bus their DC miles across town for a not good enough school.

Hi Sprites, I too am Atheist but my daughter ended up going to an Anglican Methodist school from Y4 having previously been in a non-affiliated infant/junior school.
It felt very hypocritical sending her there but in no way were we made to feel that we too had to become Christians or attend any church services. Our lack of religion was never discussed or questioned and although it was church-funded it ran almost exactly the same as her previous school.
In fact at her previous school they also celebrated Christian festivals and held a religious assembly once a week so it was only a small 'step-up' iyswim in regards to religious education.
I guess what I'm trying to say is your DC will be receiving religious education in the non church school any way so would it really be that bad to consider the church schools too?
fwiw I agree with you that as long as our DC have enough support at home it shouldn't matter that they are not going to an 'outstanding' school.

That came out wrong, I'm sure all of us would rather our DC went to the best schools, and of course education matters but it's not always possible to play the placement game and win.

YABU re HV's giving parents a heads up. It used to be many parents didn't know the school scramble secret passed between MC mothers, and were seriously disadvantaged by it. I'm pleased to hear at least all mums may now be being given that knowledge.

It's not a catchment system if the boundaries keep shrinking, suggesting that there just aren't enough schools in total and they are not planning sufficiently about where to put them.

The boundaries shrink round desirable schools because more and more well off people are prepared to pay premiums to move into inflated price properties, making the boundary smaller, as well as buying property within the catchment and sub dividing, not because there aren't enough schools.
Everyone else is then left travelling to whatever's left.

Some HA's come under huge pressure to sell artificially valuable properties in those area's for re-development, and remove tenants to undesirable areas, where there's no problem getting into your local school.

JustGetting I'm not talking about particularly desirable schools though. Both the schools we live near are only 'satisfactory' and I would have been happy with this.

How does it help for everyone to be anxiously fuelling each others' anxiety but not collectively working together to challenge the ridiculous policies that have put us in this position in the first place?
House prices are already ridiculously high in our area and this anxiety is only making it worse.
And Periwinkle as I said before I would consider a religious school if I thought we had any chance of getting in but what I'm not going to do is convert just so we will be accepted.

I don't consider short-sighted strategies for gaming the system to be particularly useful or effective on a wider scale.
I do however take Merry's point about contacting my local MP and that seems to be a useful way forward.
I just wish more parents would do the same instead of just pulling out all the tricks in the book to get their particular child into the best school.