To think that HV's should not be doling out 'advice' on school admissions and to be livid about the implications

[spritesoright]

Sorry, this is long.
I recently took DD to her 2Y health visitor checkup. We got the usual advice about vitamin D, teeth brushing, etc. Then near the end she asked me if I had looked into schools at all. We have moved recently and chose a house within walking distance of two 'satisfactory' schools but beyond this I have not done anything.
I actually believe that home influence is more important and as long as DD is at a 'good enough' school nearby she will do fine with our support.

The health visitor then went on to strongly urge me to make further considerations and suggested checking the catchment distances, attending church if we're religious or MOVING closer to a good school.

I was a bit flabbergasted.

Initially I thought she was just trying to be 'helpful' but a friend got the same lecture at her HV appointment so it seems to be standard in ours and surrounding councils as advice.

I can't help thinking that the implications of this are that if we don't get DD into a nearby school we aren't being proactive enough so it's our fault as parents. At least that's what the council are trying to say.

In reality we live in a borough that had a massive birth boom in 2011 when DD was born where schools are already oversubscribed and I can see the council doing little about it. I suspect they are constrained by the coalition's emphasis on free schools and academies (don't get me started).

I checked the council primary admissions guide online when I got home where it urges parents to 'choose realistically' based on distances but even though we are only a few minutes walk from nearest schools, DD would not have been admitted to either this year based on distances they provide.

Other nearby schools are Catholic or C of E and given that we're atheists that's not going to happen.

So, AIBU to think that I shouldn't have to open my own free school, convert to a new religion or pay twice the amount for a house next to an 'outstanding' school in order to get my child into a primary school!?

I know the council has a responsibility to school her somewhere but what I fear is that it will be 5 miles away (in london rush hour traffic) or in some temporary trailer in a parking lot somewhere because the council are not being proactive enough and instead trying to pawn the responsibility off onto parents?

I welcome your thoughts.

Sure. I said it's still a nightmare. My DC's school has just lost a big chunk of playground to accommodate a bulge class. Schools are doing what they can. Parents are doing what they can. This HV is doing what she can. But yes, it's still a problem. And being aware of that and taking steps to not be one of the 10 without a place is surely preferable to finding out at the last minute that you're fucked and it's too late to do anything?

I don't call that pushy or sharp-elbowed. It's an unfortunate necessity, and more sensible than being livid or hoping that some collective working will magic up a solution in time to help the remaining 10 kids. Who will get places somewhere, as I said. What evidence have people seen that would lead them to have faith that the system is going to get better?

As the parent of a pfb in London whose kid sat on waiting lists till January (I didn't mind cos he's a summer birthday tbh) I'd hang onto that HV.

Forewarned is forearmed. If you work then an extra terms nursery fees to fund is only one of the issues you'll find, childminders who do pick ups for the school you get allocated may not have spaces left etc.

When we left London several of our neighbours were facing the same issue for year 7 entry.

Parental choice a hollow joke - getting a state school place at all is now the goal in some areas.

I would guess that home schooling is going to become more and more prevalent in London and beyond.

There are a lot of threads from people in London who get offered no place and have to go on waiting lists for long periods.

Knowing this at 2 - means you can at least plan or try to or at least not panic if you do have to wait for a while or years.

Though perhaps her comments about the school quality were to far - as there is more to a school than ofsted ratings.

I think HV was actually being helpful so YABU.

Surely the issue with schools in London (albeit that it happens elsewhere too) is one of the factors when you consider where you live as a family? When we had children of the same age as the OP, and wanted to move, we had a list of all the criteria that were relevant for us – proximity to jobs / family / housing cost / income potential ..... and eligibility for school places. We looked at all of those factors including contacting potential schools and studying the catchment area. Yes, of course there is an obligation on the council / LEA to provide an education (my DCs school is also now going from a 2 form entry to a 3 form entry next Sept) but there is an obligation on the individual to make an informed choice as to where they live.

Oh come on Mandy.

"but there is an obligation on the individual to make an informed choice as to where they live."

Seriously? you think people

a. have absolute choice over where they live. As opposed to taking what they can afford, factoring in commuting costs to work and maybe needing to be near childcare if they can get it free or cheap from family
b. if they don't - if they can't make this choice, or foolishly choose wrongly, their children don't deserve an education

?

Seriously? Does this apply to the NHS? If I break my leg, or have a baby, and live in the wrong corner of a borough or between boroughs, should I just forget about having medical treatment?

What else does this apply to? Maybe people at only certain addresses should be allowed to vote too. Maybe only certain people should get access to libraries - oh wait that has already happened

Eh?? Thats not quite what I said!!

I mean that if you move house there are a huge number of factors which you should take into account, if you have children of school age, or coming up to school age, then catchment/likely eligibility is one of them.

I'm not sure what it has to so with the NHS ??!!

That's a bonkers extrapolation. She didn't say 'absolute choice'. No one imagines they have absolute choice. It's often an agonising choice at best. But she's quite right that lots of people move out of London for schools, sometimes forsaking work opportunities, family and friends etc. I honestly don't get the point of this idealistic ranting at the system whilst giving the individual no responsibility for sorting their shit out. If one family can't sort out their own situation, why would you expect the largely ineffective muppets in charge of a vast and imperfect system to be able to sort it out for everyone?

When our eldest was 2 and we were buying one big factor was school catchments then DH work journey then house prices and what we needed in house. All these factors lead to areas we would look at.

I was surprised when others said they didn't when house buying who had DC similar ages though estate agents here were bloody useless and didn't have this kind of information or see it's importance.

When we move secondary catchments will be big deciding factor where we look as DC will be nearing that age-but obviously that goes in with other things like work journey, house prices and what we need. Primary catchment will be in there but we'll have less control over getting places as DC already that age.

London is different though - OP is in catchment with schools she is happy with but they are so stretched it's going on distance which is hard to predict each year.

Thank you pinkdelight.

Mindful of not wanting to make this London-centric.... but surely one can appreciate that young couples who are trying to get on the housing ladder when i.e. a baby comes along that they can't tick the "catchment" box as well as all the others.

We were incredibly lucky to be buying in London in 2005 instead of 2013.

"OP is in catchment with schools she is happy with but they are so stretched it's going on distance"

She's not in catchment. There is no catchment. Only distance. And if she'd checked the figures before, she'd have seen the house wasn't close enough.

But - finally - on the bright side, she might get lucky with a bulge class. It does happen and then everyone lives happily ever after (clutches straws).

pinkdelight, because it isn't about any given individual, it is about whether we live in a society that provides universal education or not

If a person with a 2 year old started talking to me about moving house, I would probably say, "and don't forget to think about schools". that is advice on an individual level.

But on a societal level, it's not about whether any given individual thought about it or not, or how hard, or how cleverly. because I don't care if it's the A family or the B family who live in the house where the kids don't get a school place - that house should not exist.

baby comes along that they can't tick the "catchment" box as well as all the others.

We did and a lot of other people do but none I know in London cause London house prices are crazy.

Distance criteria rather than catchment are a fucking nightmare though - one year you'd be in another not the area we'll move to has this for some of the secondary schools.

How do you predict that - one year might have loads of siblings which may shoot them up list of not depending on area's criteria, which as we have younger DC could also be an issue, then it depends on the cohorts numbers and people moving in out of area.

You can't predict it at all as there are so many variables. We are thinking about living outside the city DH works making his commute longer and my job searching harder to avoid whole issue and have two O.K secondaries as options both of which operate on catchment areas so really should get into closest but if not back up is o.k.

But - finally - on the bright side, she might get lucky with a bulge class. It does happen and then everyone lives happily ever after

Depends on how well school deals with bulge class - heard some horror stories about that as well. It's been an issue in area DH work in and we'll move down to.

pink its not on because there's a big difference between a bit of a lottery in whether you get into the "best" school and a lottery as to whether you get a state education at all. People shouldn't have be struggling to buy more expensive houses to push themselves up the queue for their children to receive any education at all.

This is supposedly a rich first world country, why can't we afford to provide an education to all children?

Well, it's not a lottery as to whether you get a state education at all. Everyone gets allocated somewhere in the end.

The rest is all 'should', 'supposedly', 'societal level' and yes, I agree. But I am living in the real world, where that house in the black hole does exist. I lived in it. I'm not sure what practical solution you're suggesting that no one is not already attempting. Or if this is just about grand visions then please go ahead and enjoy the abstract debate. I'll leave you to it.

To talk about things that effect more than you or me is not "abstract". it is having a collective vision. It is just as real-world as "i'm alright jack". but nicer and ultimately, in the end, more practical.

using that snotty tone about anyone who talks or thinks about anyone beyond themselves - "grand visions" indeed - is why this country is allowing its unelected govt to shit on the majority. Grow the fuck up.

Which kids does she suggest go to the 2 local schools I wonder

I can really feel your love coming through. Very moving when you're talking about the majority, not so nice talking to someone in particular. Sorry you think my tone is snotty. At least it's not outright rude. You make many (misguided) assumptions about where I stand politically. I don't believe 'I'm alright Jack' is the answer. But me not being all right wasn't being sorted out by anyone else so ultimately it wasn't practical.

There have never been enough school places in London for all the children born in London. LEAs used to be able to bank on a fairly large number of families going private or moving out before their children reached school age. The recession changed that at just the same time as a baby boom. I believe it is generally accepted that there has also been an effect from immigration, although that's a very hot potato politically, and I think there are arguments about how many children of recent immigrants there are in the school system. So there aren't enough places for all the children that need them and it is scandalous that this is not being sorted out properly as a matter of extreme urgency.

But of course, there is also the distorting effect of parental 'choice', as so many people wrongly label it - it's actually parental 'preference' if you read the Admissions Code. I travel to work by bus. As my bus trundles through the London rush hour, the bus fills up with parents escorting primary aged children to schools miles from where they live. Presumably a fairly large number of the cars also clogging the streets up are taking children on similar journeys. This is madness. When my children were primary age, we didn't want 'the best' school for them. For one thing, what was 'best' for one child might not have been 'best' for the other one. We wanted 'good enough' and 'local' and so did most of the parents we knew.

It beats me why the OP should be criticised for not realising that a school a short walk from her home would be too far away for her child to stand any chance of a place. Why would any sane person think that, if they haven't been through the school admissions madness yet? Is there another country in the developed world that has such a market-driven approach to school admissions? Not to my knowledge. In most other countries, including Scotland, and indeed in many parts of England still, children go as a matter of course to their nearest state school. Oddly enough, in many cases they do far better than we do in the PISA tables.

Londonmother, you say the OP shouldn't have known about the lack of places in London but then say "there have never been enough school places in London..." I think most people have an inkling certainly if you read any newspapers / watch news on TV that it is a real problem, and therefore whilst I agree that something needs to be done centrally (albeit that my LEA is doing something about it - an extra class), she shouldn't have assumed, simply because its walking distance, that she'd get a place.

Which school your child attends has certainly become an complicated enterprise, and since it's ultimately a zero-sum game there's no value-added from the wholesale transport of schoolchildren around central London every morning and afternoon. It's a far cry from my own childhood; I attended the same school system from kindergarten up til when I started university - based on geography only.

Having said that my eldest is just about to undertake his 11+ and quite possibly join the hordes of child-commuters. It's like an arms race, you have to engage of you're at a disadvantage.