to think that my FIL pisses himself on purpose?

[randomAXEofkindness]

After a visit from the PIL last year, DH commented that FIL (who's 64) had been suffering sporadically from urinary incontinence (being generally continent but completely weeing himself without warning every now and again) and was going to see the doctor about it.

I found DH wrinkling up his nose sniffing the sofa after FIL's next visit a few months later, and when I asked him what he was doing, he replied that FIL was still 'losing control of himself' and that his trousers had been wet. I inquired whether FIL had been to see the GP, and DH said yes, they'd referred him for tests and they'd all come back normal. The GP couldn't explain it.

Then last week FIL came again, this time while DH was at work. I noticed as soon as he came in that his light grey jogging bottoms were soaking wet down to his knees. He sat down on the couch and stayed there for about 45 minutes. Then when he got up to leave, I noticed he had a duffel bag with him. He went to the bathroom and voila! New pants! And off he popped.

Sooo, am I being unreasonable in suggesting that FIL is wetting himself on purpose for attention? I understand that the GP saying that he doesn't have a physical problem doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one, doctors can be wrong. What I don't understand is why somebody would not wear pads if they knew there was the chance that they could wet themselves, or why somebody who had a change of clothes would not get changed and choose instead to sit down for 45mins (with his legs wide open ) on random's poor sofa. Does anybody have any better suggestions? Am I just a horror (probably, for many other reasons ) whose hatred for the inlaws is making me irrational, or is my random-sense tingling in a reasonable manner?

We'll do that lilicat, thanks.

Jesus YANBU! As for those saying "Oooh well he's old" 64 is not that old actually!

Unless he has dementia...is that possible OP?

It doesnt need to be dementia. And reading what else you said regarding money and his son (and he was already slightly odd) it could well be a mental health issue. Self care can often be the predominant problem. How long ago did his son pass away?
Was it expected?

Whatever the underlying cause is it needs addressing as it is not normal and he is lucky he has you to push this.
And to be honest I would be very upset about my sofa as well! And probably wouldnt be as tactful as you.
Good luck

Your post makes me incredibly angry. My beloved Dad suffers from urinary incontinence. It embarrasses him hugely. He apologises for the smell and the amount of washing it causes. He wears incontinence pants which he has to buy himself as the NHS only supplies pads which don't work.

Up until the last 4-5 years he was the smartest, cleanest man I have ever known.

The urge to pee comes on him so quickly he can rarely make it to the lavatory, so he rarely goes out. We would take him, but he just gets so self conscious if he has an accident.

We love babies/toddlers and think they're cute and lovely even when we have to change stinky and wet nappies. Toddlers and babies aren't embarrassed because they don't have the physical resources not to pee themselves. I wish we could be more tolerant of the elderly, who are basically in the same situation, but with the knowledge that causes them embarrassment.

I was perhaps a little vociferous in my earlier post but it's a subject I feel quite strongly about as a mental health nurse (often with older people / challenging behaviours).
I notice that you say your FIL is overweight OP - does he have diabetes? This can sometimes affect continence, especially if it is being badly managed atm - his GP may not have picked up on the association.
I do reiterate what I said earlier though, he needs to know. Please leave your embarrassment at the doorstep and speak up (or at least arrange with DH / MIL for SOMEONE to do it).

Syllabubble, I'm sorry that my post affected you that way, I admit that it was very badly written. I don't know whether you read any of my later posts? I would find it difficult to compare your DF with my FIL. The situations are completely different. My own DF suffers from incontinence too (he is recovering from prostrate cancer) and I can't find any similarities in their behavior. My FIL isn't embarrassed by it and seems to actually flaunt it, which is suggestive of a mental health problem. If he'd been troubled by it in any way, it would be a completely different kettle of fish and I would never have been asking whether he was "doing it on purpose".

I'm sorry about your DF.

mrssmith He does suffer from type 2 diabetes, I'll definitely mention that to DH. I don't really understand what DH can say about the issue of purposefully staying wet. FIL obviously does know, what should DH actually say?

Tricky one OP. IME as an older people's nurse I'd say it's unlikely that it's intentional. I agree with the pp, he needs a urology referral. GP's are great for front line care but have so little time that things can get missed and the causes for I continence issues are complex.

Sorry, just reread your post mrssmith, do you think it would be helpful to have another discussion about pads? The GP, MIL, and his DB (who is a nurse) have discussed it with him already. He just ignored them, that's why I was considering whether he was staying wet on purpose. If he is suffering from a mh problem, what exactly do you think DH should do?

faith, DH will push for a urology referral (I think he's already had one, but maybe they missed something). It does sound quite likely that there is an underlying physical cause to his incontinence, but I think staying wet is a different issue.

There is the possibility that he genuinely did not notice until the urine cooled and he became uncomfortable!

Also, he might actually have been embarrassed and was just sitting still hoping for some way of getting out of the room to the bathroom without you noticing. Did you go out of the room at all? I would have been tempted to say something like 'Excuse me for five minutes, I just need to unload the washing machine' or similar - so he knew he could get up and go out of the room without anyone watching him.

It may be that he hung on and hung on for an opportunity, and when it didn't come, finally had to get up and go and change before leaving.

One way of covering embarrassment is to pretend not to notice / not to care.

I have a disability that puts me in awkward social situations sometimes (nothing to do with continence) and I have done this before - just waited and waited for an opportunity to do something awkward without people noticing (and sometimes eventually had to get up in front of them when no opportunity came). I would brazen it out then, because it only makes the situation worse if people see your embarrassment.

It's just a thought.

Does anyone know if the GP has considered whether he might have dementia, some kind of aphasia, or something similar? It would have to be a very remiss GP that wouldn't, in a man in his sixties who is incontinent and stares into space a lot.

You can but encourage him back to the GP. I must admit I would be suspicious its some form of attention seeking, which could obviously be part of onset of dementia, but the kissing OP on the mouth thing is odd and a bit disgusting too.

I can't believe the hard time the OP is getting - even if her FIL does have the start of dementia (which has not been proven), she can hardly be expected to combine nursing skills along with empathy worthy of Florence Nightingale. I realise mumsnet is full of such saintly types (who are hopefully just as saintly in real life as online), but I think it must be rather hard for the OP to deal with.

Mamma He came in wet from outside and it was quite chilly out there. And again, this isn't the first time, on a previous occasion he was prompted by MIL to go to the bathroom and get changed several times before he actually went (DH told me, I didn't notice).

hop That's a really good point, but, yes, I left frequently to chase after the kid's, make his coffee, check the dinner etc. The bathroom door is downstairs and right next to the living room he could have just darted in there.

Can you imagine how awful it would be to be incontinent yourself?

It's a complex issue and can be for many medical reasons and is surrounded by shame and stigma.

Please support him

Another discussion, yes I do. Probably pants rather than pads though (i've found they are more appropriate for very mobile people, pads can dislodge after a bit of walking about).
I'm naturally a very forward / factual person and pretty unshockable (Discreet and empathetic though!) but I can understand that it would be difficult to broach in a frank way with a family member.
I only have a very small snapshot of the circumstances but I certainly think a return to the GP is in order. As for a MH problem, if it were part of a wider set of behaviours i'd possibly agree but as it seems to be a stand-alone thing i'd be inclined to say no. I'm not the expert though!! There are people being paid five times my salary for that kind of thing.

Again, apologies for jumping down your throat last night - these things get my defences up and it sometimes takes a few minutes for me to look at the full picture and the wider affected.

I can't comment on the medical side of things, as that sounds like something that the OPs FiL needs family encouragement and support to access.

In the mean time, I would buy a fleecy throw and an absorbant pad (something like this ) which you can chuck over the sofa before he arrives and quickly wash afterwards. Pad on the sofa, throw over the top (to make it look more normal).

Can people think before they comment that 64 (or any age) is not old and thus implying that no allowances should be made? It is upsetting when you have a mother who has advanced dementia and a father with a knackered body from working outside on a building site since age 15 who are both early 60s and need the services provided for the elderly.

Also - maybe have a spare set of clothes for him, so you can offer them to him if he needs them.

In going to stick my neck out and support OP and what bogeyface said.

The fact that FIL. Came soaking and sat in his own urine for 45m then changing in to fresh clothes he brought him self indicates there is more going in than just not kmowing he had pissed himself. He would be able to smell it, feel it and see it.

I would guess it was a MH problem.

Please can all the professionally offended people give it a rest!

mrscakes idea is good.

I'm sorry to read the post OP, and I think some replies were a bit hard on your. I'd not like someone to sit on my furniture for 45 minutes wearing pissy pants. If it was your own father you could probably address it directly. However your DH can maybe sort it out. If not, the next time he comes to the house in sodden trousers, I'd bit the bullet and said (as my old mother used to say 'half in fun, whole in earnest) "Oh dear FIL, have you had an accident? Have you got a change of clothes with you?' Put him on the spot. Appear sympathetic and kindly, but also not taking any nonsense, matter of fact, unembarrassed (as he is). If he says 'oh dear, no I've not got a change'. Then you say, 'well let me just get an old towel to put down'. Or something. Don't just pretend it's not happening. I think the family is being a bit too casual about this. It's not right and it's not nice for whatever reason.

Sorry for the typoes. Fat fingers.