to think that my FIL pisses himself on purpose?

[randomAXEofkindness]

After a visit from the PIL last year, DH commented that FIL (who's 64) had been suffering sporadically from urinary incontinence (being generally continent but completely weeing himself without warning every now and again) and was going to see the doctor about it.

I found DH wrinkling up his nose sniffing the sofa after FIL's next visit a few months later, and when I asked him what he was doing, he replied that FIL was still 'losing control of himself' and that his trousers had been wet. I inquired whether FIL had been to see the GP, and DH said yes, they'd referred him for tests and they'd all come back normal. The GP couldn't explain it.

Then last week FIL came again, this time while DH was at work. I noticed as soon as he came in that his light grey jogging bottoms were soaking wet down to his knees. He sat down on the couch and stayed there for about 45 minutes. Then when he got up to leave, I noticed he had a duffel bag with him. He went to the bathroom and voila! New pants! And off he popped.

Sooo, am I being unreasonable in suggesting that FIL is wetting himself on purpose for attention? I understand that the GP saying that he doesn't have a physical problem doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one, doctors can be wrong. What I don't understand is why somebody would not wear pads if they knew there was the chance that they could wet themselves, or why somebody who had a change of clothes would not get changed and choose instead to sit down for 45mins (with his legs wide open ) on random's poor sofa. Does anybody have any better suggestions? Am I just a horror (probably, for many other reasons ) whose hatred for the inlaws is making me irrational, or is my random-sense tingling in a reasonable manner?

I spoke to DH and he said that he's going to speak to MIL about revisiting the issue, although he isn't very confident about her response (usually when he brings things up that she doesn't want to confront she starts crying and asking "Why me?" and he doesn't get very far).

He should maybe ask for a urology referal. There are conditions where the bladder completely empties without warning or sensation. Also his weight would not help this. Certainly not at 64 or any age really should incontinence just be accepted.

Of course mental health problems can impact greatly. And the fact he has lost his son and may have some guilt about not listening to you could be a part of it. Does he speak about his son?
But there are also neurological problems that can cause it. It must be impossibly hard to bring it up with him but do try or perhaps ring his surgery and speak with the practice nurse to see if they can get to the bottom of it. Dont be fobbed of!

if your mil doesn't want to progress it your dh should take him to see another more sensible doctor.

64 is not old at all.

it's hard for you op as they do sound a difficult family to deal with so keep plugging away. it can't be ignored.

It could be dementia, it could be low mood, it could be a urological problem and he could just be being an arse.

If he hasn't shown any arse-like tendencies previously, this is the least likely.

I'm also tempted to take the report of 'GP said there were no problems' with a pinch of salt. GP can only go on the info given to them and if FIL and MIL are in denial, they may not have told the GP the extent of the problem. Or if the GP suggested a referral, accidentally forgotten this part of the consultation.

I'd suggest your DH pursues this to find out exactly what happened and get them to go back. And in the meantime, if you see FIL wet again make a ginormous caring fuss 'Oh no, let's help you to the bathroom, your wet, I'm so sorry, are you OK, can I help, gosh this happens a lot how embarrassing for you' to try to prompt them into some action.

I think this sounds anything but on purpose.

There are so many possible causes for it it is difficult to know where to start but he needs to see the doctor again, not least to help protect his skin.

Does your MIL do the washing if so she probably already has an idea of the scale of the problem (as does FIL if he brought spares with him). He needs to be spoken to about incontinence products.

Incontinence is often seen as a shameful thing and many older people refuse to admit they have a problem. (I once nursed a lady who had 7 flannels in her underwear rather than incontinence pads (a single pad would have been much more comfortable) but she was ashamed of her problem).

So who has said what to whom so far OP? Sorry if i'm wrong but so far it's been just your MIL talking to DH about it, then taking FIL to the Doc's, and then telling DH the tests were clear, yes?

I know i might be way oversimplifiying here as it's a rotten situation for all of you, but how about, next time you or DH notices FILs trousers are wet, DH saying in a matter of fact way - 'Dad, have you got your change of clothes with you? I can see a bit of damp i think.'

Perhaps after that he could ask if FIL had noticed he'd wet himself, and if he says not then just steam in there with something bold along the lines of 'you're gonna have to start wearing the pads the docs talked about dad, cos you cant go sitting around like this. Do you need any help getting them?'. Or something. Bring it out in the open. DH should be dealing with his dad really.

I think Fluffy has a good plan there for your DH, its not pleasant or in many peoples comfort zones to have to talk about this, but I think its the best thing for your DH to confront him head on with it.

I have to say though my DF would rather wet himself and walk round Buckingham Palace than wear the pads.

So he brings spare clothes to change into for after he has wet himself and did that prior to just leaving?? Yep I think he is doing it deliberately but god knows why.

Why justtoo? He knows he has continence issues so he was prepared. He doesn't want to wear pads, this is probably due to his dignity and pride.

Or is it because he wanted the OP to notice but didnt want to sit in wet clothes in his car on the way home?

If he genuinely doesnt know he has done it then he wouldnt have noticed after 45 minutes or 45 days. The fact that he did know he had done it and only changed when getting into his own car tells me that at some level there is a conscious decision being made. If that decision is coming from some from of dementia or MH issue we dont know and that is what should be investigated as a matter of urgency.

He doesn't want to wear pads, this is probably due to his dignity and pride.

If his dignity and pride led him to not want to wear pads then he would not want to sit in pissy clothes either and would be embarrassed and rushing to change. He wasnt bothered at all.

or attention seeking or crying out for help, or a sort of Onslow character wanting to piss op off.

Bogeyface I've seen loads of people only notice they'd wet themselves, on standing. I don't know how it works because I've never been in that position. It's easy to see it from your view I admit but it's just not that simple sometimes.

The OP didnt ask why he was doing it but whether he is doing it on purpose and from what she posted, yes I think he is.

But why he is doing it a much bigger question and does certainly point towards a MH issue of some kind simply because it such an unpleasant thing for someone to do. I cant imagine anyone would want to sit in their own wee so the fact that he is doing it means that something is going on and needs to be investigated. As a physical cause has not come up with anything then the OP needs to push for a psychological investigation for him.

My step FiL, sharp as a tack (still discussing his university lecturing with colleagues) used to deny he had continence issues, hiding shitty clothes in cupboards and under the bed. The whole house stank. It was nothing to do with being afraid to speak out, and everything to do with controlling my MiL, keeping her working for him as he felt he had married her so she would be his housekeeper. It was a way of exerting control as he knew how distressed the mess and the smell made her.

Is there some aspect of your FiL that might suggest he is in some way punishing you with his continence issues?

I agree you're getting a hard time. The fact that he didn't change immediately although he had pants and was aware he was wet shows that it's not simply a case of him having innocent accidents.

I have a feeling it might be some sort of a sex thing and he gets off on it.

No constructive advice because I can't get over your OP

Poor FIL.

Wow SeaSick you are going to get FLAYED for that one!

For god's sake.

It really does happen a lot that people have no sensation of incontinence and wouldnt notice until he stood. I see it a lot in my work. Normally some mental health decline or neurological defect.

It may even be a prostate problem but that usually presents with other symptoms and more dribbling than a full bladder full.

The fact he wont wear pads can be common too. Its hard to imagine why someone would rather be wet but people all have different opinions.

Its good you care but your husband needs to back you up and question him. You were right before with your hunch about his brother.

If he was capable of knowing he was wet and needed changing when he left then he would have been aware of it when he arrived too.

If it was dementia he wouldn't suddenly have recovered and realized he needed changing. He was standing when he arrived so it's not the standing. The GP says there is no physical problem.

Some people do get off on this sort of thing. Maybe it's not sexual and it's some sort of power or control thing?

I think it's odd he had a pair of spare pants and trousers anyway, especially if he is supposedly in denial about his continence. It almost seemed like he had them with him because he was planning on doing it.

I just can't see how someone with dementia would have the where with all to pack spare trousers and pants but not know they'd wet themselves.

I am sorry to hear of your Fil issues.
From what you have posted I don't believe its intentional.
My grandfather showed signs of Dementia at 59 and by the time he stopped working 2 years later it was much worse. I believe it was the inactivity of retirement that made the symptoms worse.

My grandfather took to leaving the house with no trousers on or on some occasions taking them off in public. No matter what we said or how much we pleaded he could not see what was wrong. When he wasn't wearing pants he was convinced he was.
Some days when he was nearly himself he would laugh and say its not something he does consciously and that his brain convinces him he has trousers on.
Maybe this is sort of what's happening to your Fil? He thinks he is dry when he's not but in times of lucidity he realises he's wet/has incontinence and changes or buys appropriate clothes.

Maybe get in touch with a dementia/Alzheimer's support charity and see if they can shed any light on the matter.

Take care

I showed DH the thread when he got in from work and he said that he would speak to FIL directly and tell him that he should go back to the GP, DH thinks that he has been depressed since he left work/BIL died/money issues and that might be the reason he is not taking care of himself properly/maybe making a cry for help with the continence issue.

While it is not unlikely that there is an underlying physical cause to his incontinence, I agree with bogeyface that staying wet unnecessarily once it has happened is such an unpleasant thing to do that there is likely to be an underlying mh issue. It makes sense that a negative answer to 'Is this something a normal person would ever do?' would often highlight a mh problem, and as lot of the earliest posters pointed out (in between calling me a cunt ) nobody would choose to do this on purpose.

I started the thread hoping that somebody might be able to give me a reasonable explanation as to how it could be possible that he hadn't noticed, or some practical advice on what to do if he was actually staying wet on purpose. I've listened to what everybody has said in regards to not noticing, and while it isn't completely impossible, it is very unlikely. Even if he had no sensation in his legs at all (which he does have), this has happened on a daily basis for over a year and he does still choose not to wear pads. I understand that he isn't the first to go down that route, but I'm not convinced that those other people didn't have a mh issue/personality disorder either, so it can't exclude him from one. I've listened to all of the advice about referrals etc and I'm grateful.

In response to the questions about whether he likes me: no he does not! In response the poster asking whether he was an arse before this: yes he was!

I have known people who have wet or soiled themselves on purpose. Those people had mental health problems and I knew them through work. I am just mentioning to say it isn't completely unknown for an adult to wet or soil themselves on purpose. It often wasn't even for attention, it was just some people did that. We didn't know the reason why.

We used to treat those who wet or soiled intentionally exactly the same as those who didn't and I suggest you take that approach here. Even if you have doubts assume it is accidental. I would suggest thinking of a short, polite thing you could say to him if the situation arises again. Maybe something like 'I think you might to change your clothes'. Ideally it would be your husband who says it and ensure it is out of anyone else's hearing so he can believe that no one else noticed.

If he chooses not to wear pads there isn't much you can do if he doesn't want any help or support. Your husband could try speaking to him and asking if he would like support to go back and speak to the doctor but that doesn't sound like something he wants to do at the moment.

seasickgal They were all of my thoughts as well. I'm definitely leaning more towards mh health/personality problem. There are a lot of other things he has done that, together with this, point towards it being a control issue (on the second time I went to visit them with DH, FIL grabbed my face and kissed me full on the lips while MIL & DH were in the next room, then pretended nothing had happened - I should probably have legged it then ), and I think it is flaring up because of recent life events etc