To think that Owen Jones is a fraud.

[soul2000]

I watched the R.T.S Lecture he gave last night on representation of the Working Class on Television, i have never heard such opinionated rubbish.
There are three questions i would like to act Owen Jones

1. Despite having an Oxford Education why do you deliberately mispronounce

certain words, in a kind of "STOCKNEY" accent.

1. Which Comprehensive did he attend , anybody who knows Stockport knows there is a huge gap between Poynton/Bramhall and Brinnington.

3. What class does he think he is with is Oxford education and two University lecturer parents.

OP...Owen Jones scares you doesn't he?

Personally I like Owen Jones he says what he thinks in a polite and straight forward way. I remember him on QT standing up to Iain Duncan Smith regarding his actions and the effects they have on the vulnerable in society without being offensive. IDS on the other hand was totally "schoolyard" pointing his finger and screwing his face up.....

watch it here:

Do not understand the OP's thoughts on his accent

OP

You might want to have a look at this reseach on social mobility and schooling
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-4446.2010.01346.x/abstract

Soul2000, I don't think anybody was criticising the OU, more the fact that your powers of logical argument don't seem like they would equip you to get a GCSE, let alone a degree. Ad hominem arguments are a basic academic concept, which lots of people from all sorts of backgrounds understand, and yet you don't seem to... Are you going to give us any analysis that makes sense about why you think terrible socialists like Owen deserve your derision, or are you just going to carry on name calling?

OP - you sound like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder regarding doing your degree through the OU.

You really shouldn't, you know. My boss - very, very well regarded in our field - did his PhD through the OU. I think his MA too, although I'm not 100% certain about that.

Wow, where does this leave me?

I've had a very working-class/Socialist upbringing. I mean, seriously Socialist - when I was 11 I was marching with the miners and meeting Scargill! My Dad was a musician with a political theatre group - he's been to Northern Ireland and North Korea with their shows.

I'm hoping to embark on a degree with the OU in the New Year as the Uni's near me are too far for me to travel to (single Mum with three kids) during the school day and also offer far more agricultural courses than anything else (I want to do Teaching Assistant stuff).

Just curious.

Lots of really clever people say "Nuke -il- er". Bit of a articulation problem, rather than an affectation as you suggest.

And it's "affect life chances", not effect

Degrees from ancient, red brick and new unis here - former comp kid from Northern England during 70s and 80s.

I don't give a monkey's about pronunciation. I do think OU is totally fab. My Dad got his degree with them after having left school at 14 to work as a grocer's boy. So pigeon-hole me however you like!

Perhaps you may have not been Mumsnetting long enough to realise that there's quite a lot of sympathy for folks who aren't doing so well in the current economic crisis here - and a lot of genuine alarm about how much this is serving to entrench class divisions for the next generation? We are after all..um.. mums. Seriously I look out there and think about what's in store for my little 'uns when they get older and it scares the crap out of me. It angers me too when I see what my grandparents fought and worked so hard to build up being torn down, so rock on Owen! Wanders off humming 'I was a miner, I was a docker...

Wow So many people to answer.
Solomon: When i write for the O.U , i have a more considered approach to how i write and what the content is, it also takes me 2 weeks to write a 1000 word essay.

Justice woman:. owen Jones went to Bramhall High School a school and area
i know very well, it is very likely his real accent will be a neutral Northern Middle Class accent, like myself and many other people from what is by Northern Standards a very Middle class area. The way he pronounces some of his words are "Brinnington/Offereton people from Stockport will understand what i mean. Brinnington is one of the poorest wards in the country.

Justice: Do you agree then that in theory there could be a case for Boarding Grammar Schools. These Boarding Grammar Schools could specifically take bright kids from areas of high deprivation , and low expectation of academic achievement that is prevalent there.

Darkestyles: In the 1950s/60s the Secondary Modern Schools were dumping grounds, this was the fault of perception and a lack of Government policy , these schools should have been equally valued , this could have been the case if they had become specialised in teaching valuable vocational skills. These skills should have been as valued as O and A Levels. We are crying out for skilled Craftsmen now aren't we.

Jakebullet: Because there are so few Grammar Schools available today and those that are tend to be in areas of high economic advantage(Except Stretford and Medway Grammar Schools) those that are available have become a fight to the death for their kids to attend. this inevitably has meant that attendance to grammar schools has become available to those people with the greatest resources. These resources can be financial or
having one or two parents who/ might have themselves benefited from higher education.

If Boarding Grammar Schools existed for the sole purpose of educating
bright or those scoring above 117 on the 11+ test , the reason i say 117 is because it gives a greater range of kids. A 117/351 score from a pupil from a social deprived area is equal to over 400 from a pupil from an advantaged background.

You may think i have waffled on to much, but we live in a Democracy, i also think Mumsnet on some threads can be a bit Monotone in its opinions.

Huh. I had to google Owen Jones.

He looks about 12.

So still nothing on why having an Oxbridge degree makes you a "fake" (apart from the glaringly obvious massive chip sitting on your shoulder), why the ideas of Owen Jones "make you laugh" or why you jumped to the completely unjustified conclusion that people were being dismissive of the OU? Imagine my surprise.

Or your inverse snobbery regarding knowledge of academic Latin phrases, or... no, can't be arsed. Going to make tea.

I've debated him a few times on panels/radio.

Not a very high opinion...

I have a real feeling that the OP is just regurgitating her OU texts here. It's all coming across as very stilted and no original ideas there.

OP, you've been asked some interesting questions here by other posters. Any chance you can answer them?

Oh and BTW, my OU-fan Dad failed the 11 plus. A case of too much shit going on at home, undiagnosed SEN and a bit of a late bloomer. Went on to put himself through all his qualifications whilst working full-time, and ended up as a uni lecturer. Bit of an inspiration really - but clearly didn't register as a 'bright kid' in the grammar school system...

Ah, just noticed your startlingly perceptive analysis, OP. He "just talks about benefit cuts". Errrr, google is your friend...

OP, you could do with looking at the work of Basil Bernstein of educational codes and Pierre Bourdieu on cultural capital.

You really must examining properly the idea of the 11+. It has never been a neural measure. The idea that any test at 11 can determine innate 'brightness' is highly contested, as the measures themselves are made from class-based understanding of what knowledge is.

She seems to think 'Chavs' is all about benefit cuts. Am guessing Bourdieu might be a bit of an over-ambitious suggestion...

"Unlike Jones and many on this site,i believe one of the biggest reasons effecting poverty and lack of life chances today was the destruction of grammar Schools"

Well, as someone who lives in Kent - i can hand on heart say, that is a big pile of bolleux right there. Grammar schools are ok for those whose parents can afford tutors to put them through the 11+ What about all those who don't pass? I didn't pass my 11+ and went to the local comprehensive. I have a degree and PhD - still working class though.

The only thing that irritated me about his lecture (other than that he really is very good) was the presumption that all working class people are hard up, many are - but many are doing ok.

He made some very good points about how we are moving back towards a two tier society where only the children of the wealthy will be able to get a foothold on the job market. Yeah, we may all get to university, but quite frankly (sorry OP) the reality is that a degree doesn't really count for much these days. You either need post graduate qualifications (expensive unless you hit the jackpot and secure funding) or have to do an internship - i like to think of this as workfare for graduates, but seriously, he's right, unless your parents can fund you for that year, you're fucked.

Two weeks to write a 1000 word essay?? maybe you should talk to your tutor if you are struggling

For a start : My views are not from the O.U Handbook. I have not used Google to find out that Jones talks about benefit cuts.

My niece is in her 2nd year at an RG university so no Jealousy there.

As for the Latin Quotations well about 99% of the population would not have a clue about what you are talking about. Another rather strange thing considering we are talking about the bottom 10% or less of the population.

I suffer from severe Dyspraxia, until 18 months ago i had not been in any education for over 22 years so my spelling and punctuation can be wrong

Eofa. You are quite right i could not pass a Gcse , as was demonstrated with my 4Es and 1D, mind you that was quite good because the first school i went to would not let me take any.

If you have been on other threads , you will no doubt have seen certain quotes like "The only Degrees worth having are Oxbridge or RG"

If i had started a thread and called Gove/Smith no doubt these posts would have been full with agreement. The left are just as clueless as the right and Jones fits into that description.

But Jones isn't a politician! He's a writer. You can't lump him in with Gove and Smith because he's not making a living the way they are.

He's a commentator.

You are talking a load of tosh, OP. In the 60s/70s I went to a selective grammar, which still exists, in the Black Country. Secondary Moderns did not teach to a specifically vocational curriculum because Technical Secondaries were supposed to do that. There was one in my area, but the programme never really got off the ground due to political problems including the fact that the trades unions already ran well-funded apprenticeship schemes. Sec Mods did feed a lot of students into Technical Colleges, which turned out qualified or part-qualified trades and crafts people. I'm 58 now - the influx of craftspeople, which you say my generation's education did not turn out, are all retiring now. They hardly represent the dearth of skilled craftspeople you lament; any at the peak of their trade now will have been schooled in the 80s.

I've no issue with first-year students getting stuff wrong, but it doesn't half piss me off when they try to rant patronisingly at those who know their stuff.

Make the most of the great opportunity the OU degree will give you. It will enormously improve your critical thinking and discussion skills, if you approach it properly. Good luck.

As for the Latin Quotations well about 99% of the population would not have a clue about what you are talking about. Another rather strange thing considering we are talking about the bottom 10% or less of the population

Don't know that that's altogether true. It's a pretty well known phrase - a bit like "Carpe Diem" or "Cogito ergo sum". Not everyone will know it, but quite a lot will - not just people who have studied Latin.

For the record, it's the logical fallacy of dismissing an argument based on some irrelevant characteristic of the author.

IE: Owen Jones says xyz.
Oh well, who cares what Owen Jones says. He looks like a 12 year old*

Your OP veered into this territory whether you realised it or not. You need to be aware of these kind of fallacious arguments when writing your essays.

(* I know no one made that argument, just using it as an example).