To think that Owen Jones is a fraud.

[soul2000]

I watched the R.T.S Lecture he gave last night on representation of the Working Class on Television, i have never heard such opinionated rubbish.
There are three questions i would like to act Owen Jones

1. Despite having an Oxford Education why do you deliberately mispronounce

certain words, in a kind of "STOCKNEY" accent.

1. Which Comprehensive did he attend , anybody who knows Stockport knows there is a huge gap between Poynton/Bramhall and Brinnington.

3. What class does he think he is with is Oxford education and two University lecturer parents.

I don't think Owen Jones is a mumsnetter, soul (but I might be wrong)

He's active on Twitter, though, so why don't you actually ask him your questions, there? He'd probably tell you not to be so rude, mind.

And the reality of grammar schools? Kept people from the wrong neck of the woods in their place, regardless of ability.

The destruction of grammar schools?? You are aware that those who have paid for extra tuition during primary school have a better chance of getting in don't you
They work to the advantage of low-middle class, not neccessairly working or underclass, which are the people who suffer most from societal pitfalls in education. Also it would be better if the government had a vested interest in improving all education (haha that'll never happen in a capitalist society), which is particularly lessened by the siphoning off of the talented and the rich to grammar and private schools.

One thousand words? Four sides of A4? To write anything meaningful of that length, you would require an incredibly sophisticated understanding of social stratification, its economic and psychological ramifications and historical background. Plus an outstanding literary gift. Hats off to you, OP. Owen Jones could clearly learn a few things from you.

Hmm... I was just going to refer the esteemed OP to the phrase 'ad hominem' too Hettie. I somehow think he/she is simply hoping for allies in a big Owen Jones rip-fest. Sorry OP, I like him so up yours.

I bet the OP's essay will be a laugh out loud riot.

There are no grammar schools in my neck of the woods.

Here everyone gets the chance to get a decent education not just the tutored few.

Good luck with that essay. I bet your tutor will be very interested to read you references verifying the impact of grammar schools.

Thanks Hettie/House. This site is not for Dissertations, its a talking shop with a bit of humor thrown in i thought.

I take it all you committed Socialists on this site , hate the thought of someone getting a Degree from the O.U.

That's rather strange considering the O.U was a Socialist idea , that was intended to give people who had struggled at school a second chance.
Infact it was set up by the biggest socialist Harold Wilson in 1966.

The piss taking goes to show that some Socialists believe they are better people because they have an Oxbridge/RG Degree.

House/Hettie. I can see your in depth understanding of Latin is going to help people at the bottom end of society.

Soloman. Maybe i will just write what i am supposed to then.

I love the OU, have studied with them. They're brilliant. One of the great things is that they really teach people how to think thoroughly and logically, so the quality of work on a level three course is much better than on a level one. Is this your first essay?

Where's the humour? I missed it....could you point it out?

And I think OU degrees are brilliant, btw.

Er I wasn't ...but then we got the current government. It's really made me think about what I believe in and what sort of a country I want my DC growing up in. And now? Yeah, I think I probably am - of the democratic socialist flavour, but a socialist? I think so.

House/Hettie. I can see your in depth understanding of Latin is going to help people at the bottom end of society

I think we mentioned it more to help you not make an enormous fool of yourself when you write that essay.

There's no supposed to, just have thorough references and a good explanation for why you reject the other ideas. Unsupported opinion will not get you a good grade. Incidentally, I have two undergraduate degrees, the first RG and the second OU. Similar quality I would say and many many very talented people doing the OU degree.

Is it such a giveaway then Soloman.

Your inferences are, to use your parlance, hilarious. Especially as everyone has been very polite about the OU.

Lol at "biggest socialist, Harold Wilson".

"Unlike Jones and many on this site,i believe one of the biggest reasons effecting poverty and lack of life chances today was the destruction of grammar Schools."

But you'd be wrong. All you need to do is look at the evidence - a far higher proportion of middle-class children than working-class ones got into grammar school. The working-classes were generally shunted off into the secondary moderns.

What people fail to understand is that there are only two ways to achieve upward social mobility. One is that places have to be created in the middle-class by middle-class people becoming downwardly mobile. Strangely, this doesn't happen very much. The other is through an expansion of middle-class jobs - this is what happened in the 1950s and 60s (on a massive scale), and hence the number of working-class people who ended up doing white-collar jobs.

I guessed from both the essay length and your approach .

Oh. I do think Owen Jones is a bit of a lightweight twat, btw, but I broadly agree with most of what he says and it's a refreshing change from most of the dross in the papers. I just think it's a bit statementofthebleedingobvious.

The reason I never went to university was because of the grammar school system.

Secondary modern students were seen as 'factory fodder'

OP Ive just watched the Owen Jones RTS Lecture and thought it very reasonable - he was just asking for a wider range of voices on television; to include what used to be called "the respectable working class" rather than an unrepresentative portrayal of all working class people as disfunctional. Hardly revolutionary stuff.

Your comments on his accent are bizarre.. are you really suggesting he has changed it from that he would have had growing up and going to state school in Stockport? If so where is your evidence?

Your research on the role of grammar schools is also somewhat lacking.

For example, you need to consider the research of Adrian Elliott. In the TES he wrote:
"The argument that, in the past, selective education provided poor children with a ladder of opportunity compared with comprehensives today is equally dubious. The percentage of the population deemed working class by the Registrar General 50 years ago - 75 per cent - was three times that of today. So to accurately compare the academic achievement of working-class children today with those in the 1950s, the performance of the poorest third from then, those from unskilled and semi-skilled families, needs to be analysed. In reality, only a very small number went to grammar schools and many who did ended up with no, or few, qualifications.

A 1950s Ministry of Education study found that fewer than 0.3 per cent of pupils leaving with two A-levels were from the unskilled working class. Even among the top grammar school streams, a third from the poorest backgrounds left without an O-level. Many poorer children left even before taking public examinations."

See www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6028593

I am actually a fan of the super-selective grammar schools with regard to the educating of academicly gifted and talented students. However, their role in social mobility is massively overstated. The real drivers to social mobility (IMHO) were quality apprenticeships, day release to technical college/polytechnics and grants.

On occasions I have found Owen Jones rather simplistic in his political analysis but Peter Hitchens is much, much worse

And they are probably seen as workfare fodder now too.

My friend (in his 40s) from a working class background went to Grammar school.

These days I doubt he'd get anywhere near it! I suspect very few children get there without either intensive tutoring or by a private primary education (same difference). Fact is that the middle classes can afford to buy their way into schools ahead of working class children whose families don't have the money for either private schooling or tutoring.

I think there WAS a place for grammar schools but this has passed.

It does disturb and amaze me that Owen Jones is clearly only 14

I think that's the only major fraud going on!