to be flabergasted at this level of deceit from dd?

[GooseyLoosey]

I had left the kids' halloween sweets in their buckets in a cupboard.

ds (10) has complained for the last week that his were going missing.

Initially, I dimissed this but then ds found a bag with empty sweet wrappers behind a cushion in the play room. There was also a wrapper from a snack only dd (9) eats.

I confronted them both and said I wanted to know who had eaten the sweets. Ds points out that it can't be him because (a) they were his and he would hardly have complained if he had eaten them and (b) there were wrappers there from things he does not eat.

Dd insists that it was not her. She would never do something like that - either take the sweets without asking or steal from her brother. She would never lie to me. If I truely love her, how can I not trust her. In the same position she would trust me as she loves me. This was all very empassioned with tears streaming down her face.

Then ds is inspired and says he can use his fingerprint kit to prove it was not dd. She goes nuts claiming that she will not submit to this as it shows we do not love or trust her. When I say it sounds like a good idea and would vindicate her, she finally says she had forgotten she had eaten them.

This all sounds trivial I know, but you had to hear the performance to believe it. I am also concerned that it forms part of a pattern of hehavious and she lies a lot about small things (just to make herself look better).

AIBU to think this is beyond normal childish deceit? If so, what, if anything should I do?

Oh, bugger. I just wrote a long post and lost it.

Well, the short version is that it sounds as though your DD feels overshadowed by her brother. You mention that she tells lies to make herself look better. I wonder whether she is trying to create a narrative in which she is the heroine in order to prove she is as good as her brother. But because she knows these stories aren't true (and she knows it's wrong to lie), they aren't really comforting and just make her feel worse.

She sounds very bright (in a real sense, not in the MN "all children are brilliant" sense ). But it seems as though she is holding herself back in some way, again maybe because she perceives her brother as outshining her. The fact that she came top in exams shows her potential.

I really think self-esteem is the key here. Maybe some regular one-on-one time with you would help? Also, I don't think it is helpful to view her as manipulative. That seems to ascribe an adult level of calculation and understanding that a child simply doesn't have. I think she sounds like a deeply emotional and bright child who feels a bit uncertain about her place in the world. But she really sounds wonderful!

If we remember how we as adults feel when we are caught out doing something shameful.... W hate it, don't we? And we are harder on ourselves than anyone external could be. Unless we are from a culture that encourages confession and repentance as a routine (which some posters clearly are, and nothing wrong with that) we find it immensely hard to shame ourselves and say we did it. I have learned to, but I still dread making a mistake at work and having to confront it.

At 9, is she really so bad because she finds that hard? I think it is quite natural for her to retreat into fantasy to make it go away. I very much doubt she is scared of her mum, or that she is a manipulative and sophisticated planner of bad deeds.

With any luck, the experience of how horrid it is to have to lie, will make her not undertake any more things she would need to cover up. In the end, that's what we are all aiming for- the development of an individual conscience to make her stop naughty things before she does them.

As for the difference in your DCs skills, I am sure you are very aware of it, and it may make you feel a little guilty secretly, but don't let that affect your analysis here. She can be completely happy in her own skin, without achieving at the same high level as her brother. I have the same situation here but DD does not feel inadequate, just proud of her brother.

Don't worry about this. I have to say your kids must have more self control than mine, I would have thrown the spare sweets out in the first place. Anything left in a bucket in a cupboard would have been raided pretty fast at that age :)

Thanks all.

Elk - your description of her sounds spot on and she is wonderful. I need to make sure she sees that.

When I describe her as manipulative, it don't see her as a criminal mastermind just as trying to affect the way I felt about the situation.

Of course she was trying to affect the way you felt. That's what we all do, when we try to placate someone we have wronged.

A truly manipulative child would have confessed and wept buckets from big blue eyes as she shyly confessed to always feeling inadequate next to her brother... I am rather reassured by the sub-Joan Collins Dallas style drama she used.

You don't have to lie about your opinion JudyJudgypants but you could definitely make it clear in your post that it is just your opinion. Your post implied it was cold hard fact and unless you're actually psychic, total bollocks also, IN MY OPINION.

I haven't yet read the whole thread but will do.
Just to say that one of my DCs was pretty much as described. An overly dramatic and extravagant liar, even when she knew I knew.
I literally tore my hair out and at times it was touch and go if my santity would pack up and decamp. I kid you not.
Some of her lies are utterly outrageous.

Fast forward and she's now at a very senior level in compliance.
And we always joke about poacher turned gamekeeper.
She's highly regarded in her field. Nothing gets past her. I suppose she's on the money with the mindset?

OP you know which way is up, just stick to your guns, it sounds like she actually knows it too and for sure there are absolutely no flies on your DS.
Good Luck.

everything beast said.

Dropyoursword, you've got the difference between defining fact from opinion the wrong way round.
you have to state its a fact, if you intend it as such,in a discussion,
that begins from opinion.
You were not there, I was not there, and it is not possible to prove the event even occurred, unless a factual evidence is provided to substantiate the claim.
Therefore the opening post is opinion, and all replies by default are opinion unless they provide an actual claim to be fact.
Facts require evidence, opinions do not, you have provided no evidence that any of the events described actually occurred, therefore your opinion is assumed, with out you having to state it as such.

Beast - Joan Collins sums it up perfectly.

Enrique - happy to hear that she may grow out of this.

Still haven't worked out whether any sanctions other than sweet replacement are required. We have agreed to sit down and talk together on Sat morning when we have plenty of time and no other distractions.

Order of birth is v relevant in DCs lives imo.

And other people's behavior can v much enforce the situation, if DS1 is amenable, good-looking, polite, then people will just automatically warm to him and give him attention and smiles.

If DD2 is slightly more reticent then she will not get bathed in this warm glow of popularity. Imagine this over many years and not due to anything you or she does. It must make a difference.

My dd is 11 and stole her 2 yr old sisters Halloween sweets!
She is also dramatic I confrontation "you don't love me"
In this instance she said her TWO year old sister said she could have them. I was fuming as it was dd2s first trick or treating and she was so chuffed.
Sugar and suchlike is like crack cocaine to dd1.

Agree with dozeydoris. And yours are close in age too, which probably doesnt help. It is not like he is 10 and she is 5.

Does she have time alone with you or your husband, while your son is elsewhere doing things?

I have several children. And after seeing nanny programmes, I realised that each child would benefit from some total alone time with both parents seperately.
Even if they had nothing much to say, or we had nothing much to say. Just riding alone in the car. Whatever.

I found the best [if I was being a bit sneaky and thought they might have something on their mind] was to play child outdoor games in the backyard. Like bat and ball or throwing hoops. Or going for a walk.
It meant that we were occupied but our tongues were not! So a nice oppurtunity to share whatever came up.

When I was eleven, I stole a packet of Minties from the larder. A whole packet and nearly made myself sick munching on them. I hid the wrappers under a corner of the carpet (really an enormous rug) under my bed. Dad eventually realised they were missing , searched and questioned us all and of course I denied with my most innocent face. Dad actually believed me and I let my brothers take the blame. Despite their protestations, they were made to work hard and were shouted at for those Minties all afternoon - chopping wood (we had a wood burning stove), mowing the lawn, gardening etc. something didn't sit right with Dad after all this and he did a more thorough search and of course he found the little mound of wrappers under the carpet. Let's just say my punishment was not a very politically correct one .... although I had enough warning (Dad said he had to cool down first) to put on several pairs of track pants to cushion it.

We've experienced some deceit from DD since she turned about 11 (she's taken money several times - which we never did- and has lied and denied each time of having done so) and we have been equally heartbroken as she was an exceptionally truthful child but I think it's a developmental thing they go through. DH has been blaming Harry Potter (which DD loves) because the books are full of phrases like "Harry lied quickly" and the children making efforts to look convincing at that etc. With the latest incident of her stealing, we didn't even ask her or get her to own up to it because the lying and shouting upsets me more than the sums involved. DH was just dropping strong hints that we knew exactly what she had done and ww just have to be more careful with our wallets.

My biggest lie was when i was about 12. Terrible story.

My dad asked me to hide his 1ltr bottle of whisky from my mam whilehe was at work.
I was so fed up of hiding alcohol from my mother, that i decided to drink some.
My dad woke me up at 1am asking where the bottle was. He got it and said "jesus...where has it all gone" there was about one shot left. I said all slurry "she must have found it dad, i am sorry"

I must have started drinking and then got so drunk i didnt realise i drank the whole bottle haha. Still to this day, they dont knlw i drank it.

I really dont know how i survived!
Serves them both right though! I would not give my dd whisky to hide. And my mam shouldnt be a raging alcoholic!

My brother was always the one who lied as a child and he's now extremely honest, whereas I was very honest as a child and would feel bad for a lie, but as I've got older, have become more immune to delivering small lies (e.g. illness to get out of something).

I don't think this stuff is fixed and plenty of children do steal/tell lies at some point- she's been caught and will hopefully learn from it.

It is such a relief to know that other children do this! As I was listening to her it was hard to believe that that level of dramatic performance could be going on in houses all over the country.

Dozey - you are right about their personalities. Ds is incredibly outgoing and straightforward. He is impossible to ignore in the room. I have always thought that dd is slightly in his shadow and have done what I can to address that.

Dd are going out together on our own to have coffee (or cake in her case) on Saturday to talk about what happened from her perspective and from mine. Does this sound OK?

Yes that sounds fine. Just try not to make the day all focused around that.

You have to remember - in order for kids to learn about lies. They have to do it themselves.

They have to taste what it is like to lie, and also taste the consequences. In order to find out for themselves whether it is right or wrong.

lying and drama queen stuff is standard childish behaviour. She's a child.

explain and keep explaining the consequences, and I agree that the lying should attract much bigger punishments than the smaller misdeed of not being able to resist sweets.

as others note you are doing her no favours if this behaviour is allowed to continue.

Oh I still remember the shame and humiliation of being trapped into a corner and the almost gleeful way my mother would tear down the walls of lies. Hideous. I was labelled a liar who couldn't be trusted and wasn't worth anything... Fundamentally bad snd rotten to the core. Scarred me for years and is one of the many reasons I have no relationship with my mother.

However it doesn't strike me that you're anything like that and I think you'll handle this with care and sensitivity. For starters, My mother would never have asked for advice on a forum, and thought long and hard about all the different reasons and ways to handle it.

You'll do fine

Some time alone over cake sounds like a nice thing to do. I wouldn't spend too much time talking about this incident, though. Maybe a brief discussion, especially to hear what she thinks, but nothing more than that. And I'd try to focus on the positive, to remind her how you know she is honest and wants to do the right thing, that everyone makes mistakes, that sometimes it is hard to admit wrongdoing but that you have faith in her and know she will learn how to admit mistakes. And then move on and enjoy your cake, have a giggle together, walk around the shops or whatever. It could turn out to be a really nice bonding experience for both of you.

I often lied when I was a child.
I think the theory was that once I had lied about something I had to keep lying, because otherwise I'd be doubly naughty.
Naughty for doing something 'bad' and then naughty for lying.

I'm a very honest adult!