to be flabergasted at this level of deceit from dd?

[GooseyLoosey]

I had left the kids' halloween sweets in their buckets in a cupboard.

ds (10) has complained for the last week that his were going missing.

Initially, I dimissed this but then ds found a bag with empty sweet wrappers behind a cushion in the play room. There was also a wrapper from a snack only dd (9) eats.

I confronted them both and said I wanted to know who had eaten the sweets. Ds points out that it can't be him because (a) they were his and he would hardly have complained if he had eaten them and (b) there were wrappers there from things he does not eat.

Dd insists that it was not her. She would never do something like that - either take the sweets without asking or steal from her brother. She would never lie to me. If I truely love her, how can I not trust her. In the same position she would trust me as she loves me. This was all very empassioned with tears streaming down her face.

Then ds is inspired and says he can use his fingerprint kit to prove it was not dd. She goes nuts claiming that she will not submit to this as it shows we do not love or trust her. When I say it sounds like a good idea and would vindicate her, she finally says she had forgotten she had eaten them.

This all sounds trivial I know, but you had to hear the performance to believe it. I am also concerned that it forms part of a pattern of hehavious and she lies a lot about small things (just to make herself look better).

AIBU to think this is beyond normal childish deceit? If so, what, if anything should I do?

Things like that are said in some kids TV shows. Even if the OPs DD doesn't watch that stuff at home she could have picked up phrases from school, or even some children's books.

Does she have friends over. I used to find it quite revealing about my own children when that happened. How they acted and behaved etc. Helping out on school trips also revealed quite a lot about how things really were in your childrens lives.

Goosey you say she was "Manipulative" when at the age of two she refused to be near you for a time after you had shouted at her, but showered her father with affection, she was'nt being manipulative at all she was scared of you.
You admit to being in your words a"a bit shouty" you are not a bit shouty at all you are frightening and she will no doubt tell you about how frightened she was of your "bit shouty" mothering when she is old enough to stand up to you.
poor kid.

I think it is pretty normal, but she is just better at it than most.

I was just chatting this morning with another Mum and we likened it to the Mythbusters 'I reject your reality and substitute my own' line.

It is like they don't even realise totally that they are lying, in their world that is the truth.

Fortunately, DS1 sucks at lying (he over complicates when everyone knows the secret to a good lie is to keep it simple ).

Some people are dramatic, it doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong, I guess you just have to teach her to temper it so she doesn't piss too many people off.

I don't think lying is always a sign that parents are too punitive or that the child is deeply insecure. I think everyone lies, but children are often terrible about knowing when the right time to lie is.

Thanks to all of you who said that this may be normal behaviour for some personalities. I think this is true to a degree - dd has always been very strong willed and manipulative

Judy - wow that was uncalled for. I really am just a bit grumpy and not very often (usually PMT related). I do not shout on a regular basis and am generally very calm. I am however aware that for 2 days a month I am a miserable, unreasonable hag. My children are allowed to tell me that and I react well to it being pointed out to me.

Chipping - I too am concerned about that. My mother tends to the dramatic (for that reason I have never done so) but I cannot see her using this language. My grandmother could stop speaking to people for years at a time but dd never really knew her. Dh often says I have little in common with the rest of my family.

Golddigger - I agree she is afraid of something and having thought about it alot, I think she is afraid of appearing less in some way than her brother. He is a year older than her, has a genius level IQ, could do A level maths at 8 etc. etc. He also looks and acts exactly like me. I was aware that dd lacked self confidence partly because of ds and for a variety of reasons including this, I moved them to separate schools 18 months ago. Her confidence has soared lately so maybe I took my eye off this particular ball.

Primadonnagirl - he really does have a fingerprint kit - one of those kids science kits you get. Seriously doubt though that he could have found prints on the packets!

We have had similar succes with the lie detector.

Spykids I think it's called

Good luck OP

I guess DD was cornered, and people who are cornered do odd things.

I would buy some self help books about self confidence. See if they can help your daughter. It may be best if she does not know you have them? Not sure.
But she may agree that she needs them. She is very bright so she may welcome them, and read them herself?

Good idea Golddigger. I have always tried to big her up and tell her how proud we are of her and how generally fabulous she is. Clearly I need more inspiration though.

I think she did feel cornered fiscal. She started with a small lie and then the more she carried it on the bigger and bigger it became until she could not stop. I will bear this in mind in future dealings with her.

Judy's comments have left me reeling slightly. I feel like the world's worst mother and I am genuinely not sure that is the case.

When my siblings and I were naughty (seventies children) and wouldn't fess up my mum would put a large spoonful of flour in our mouths and explain that if we were lying, our mouths would dry up and the flour would stay dry, if we were innocent the saliva would make the flour claggy. Surprisingly efficient though horrid.
With my own children I explain over and over that if they confess to their 'crime' I will be far less cross than if I find out the truth later and any punishment will be lighter.
Dd1, an inveterate liar, is now accomplished at tearful confessions just in time.

From what you've written, I'm not sure it is self esteem issues, but then I'm certainly not an expert and can only go on what's been written.

You said she was manipulative at just 2 and this immediately made me think she just does what she wants and is prepared to do whatever it takes to avoid the consequences.

However she sees her older sibling now, she wouldn't have been that aware at on 2 years of age.

GooseyLoosey, you most certainly are not the world's worst mother.
There may be an inkling of truth in what Judy says, as in you are a bit strong for her. Most mums probably would be. But you were not to know how bad she feels about herself inside.And now you do, I suspect you will bear it in mind. You could even say that you realise that she is hurting inside in some way, or something like that, and that you are going to help her with how she feels about herself.

Joysmum - I kind of agree that she just has that kind of personality and is manipulative. Do think she has a lack of self esteem but that may or may not be relevant to why she acted the way she did.

Golddigger - agree that I am a fairly strict mum but I am absolutely not frightening. Dd and I were talking about this a few weeks ago and she decided I was a medium strict mum but that this was OK as she preferred her friends who had stricter parents as they were better behaved than the ones who did not (sweeping and inaccurate generalisation I know and based on a sample size of 5) and therefore would not like me to be a totally chilled mum.

I think you sound very lovely and balanced. This parenting malarkey isn't easy is it? When faced with at least 2 possible reasons for the behaviour, both requiring different responses, it can be so hard.

You know your daughter best, you are very aware of both schools of thought on this and are being extremely careful in stepping back and working out which is right in your situation. Your kids are lucky to have such a considered mum

You honestly don't sound any more scary or shouty than me, my DH or any other parents I know op.

Re. the two year old thing, I think it's a fairly normal phase some toddlers go through, playing favourites with their parents and barely talking to the one not in favour? I distinctly remember dd3 doing it with me and her dad for months at a time. Any chance it just coincided with the telling off?

My dd1 would lie in a situation like this, and swear absolutely blind to her innocence when she's backed into a corner. We've had situations where she has never admitted things, once she starts a lie she can be amazingly tenacious and she just will not back down, even when confronted with irrefutable proof. It's so bamboozling.
We've had all the "omg how can you not believe me"s and the crocodile tears. She hasn't threatened me with the damaging our relationship line though, that's a new one on me. Karen on Outnumbered??
DD1 can be so manipulative (has lots of lovely qualities too), I try very hard to not let her away with any type of manipulative behaviour and DH always backs me up on this. Her dad doesn't live with us though, and has been a part time/occasional dad since he left when she was a baby. She has always got away with acting like a bit of a brat with him, maybe she's good at playing on his guilt.

She is a clever little girl Goosey and it will be O.K because she knows you know.

My mother was the original Judge Judy who knew us all well,for our different traits.We knew she was on to us.

I have children and nieces and nephews who are all pillars of society now in all professions,including the detective who had the fingerprint kit!

The whole drama ,being caught out,being told off,siblings involved and watching big eyed ,as the tearful "my body told me to do it",or "I had wild hands",being resolved, IS the moral lesson.

These stories are never forgotten and memories regularly resurface at large family gatherings,with mirth,old resentments,awe and love.

Thanks for saying nice things! I am trying my best.

Goosey - try and forget about Judy; sometimes you get posters like that and when I've had them on AIBU threads I've posted, they've kind of left me with my heart beating faster and worrying hugely about how awful I am. I don't think your DD is scared of you, but of disappointing you (because she values you incredibly highly).

I think girls (and TBF, probably boys, just less experience) are deceitful; I was when that age. I also told a few whoppers and as you say, sort of got drawn in and had to keep going because I was so terrified of how much I'd upset my parents.

A friend posted this interesting article on FB - might be relevant as it addresses fear of failure.

I also think Judy was out of order with what she said. I think it's extremely unlikely your daughter was actually scared of you, she just didn't like being told off!

This sounds so like my youngest son who could make a living out of lying! He would lie about what he's had for breakfast! He's just so good at it...he makes me doubt myself even when it's 99.9% certain that he's the only one who could have done it! Two oldest out all day, I know I haven't done it and doubt very much that DH did it. He was grounded once for a month because he did something quite minor and without meaning to, it esculated and he WOULD NOT back down! I know it was silly, it just happened....Just admit it or you will be grounded etc....But he is 16 now and such a laugh, a funny,
very confident, well liked young man...He has even remembered a few incidences and admitted that it was him all along...!!!! I've always said he'd make a good politician!!! Just want to say 'this too will pass'!

....Was I supposed to lie about my opinion then? I don't think it was any more shouty than usual, and it was definitely honest.
Isn't that what this is about ? honesty. ( which is its own reward)

I think this is normal.

children need to learn not to lie, but also need to learn about forgiveness and not bearing grudges. They learn by following examples of those closest to them , so we all need to remember to practice what we preach, reward honesty with lots of praise, and express sadness at dishonesty but quickly move on - so the wrong doer still feels loved, valued and secure.

None of this rubbish like "a policeman will come and tell you off if you do that again...." when your child is a bit lively in Tesco!