to be flabergasted at this level of deceit from dd?

[GooseyLoosey]

I had left the kids' halloween sweets in their buckets in a cupboard.

ds (10) has complained for the last week that his were going missing.

Initially, I dimissed this but then ds found a bag with empty sweet wrappers behind a cushion in the play room. There was also a wrapper from a snack only dd (9) eats.

I confronted them both and said I wanted to know who had eaten the sweets. Ds points out that it can't be him because (a) they were his and he would hardly have complained if he had eaten them and (b) there were wrappers there from things he does not eat.

Dd insists that it was not her. She would never do something like that - either take the sweets without asking or steal from her brother. She would never lie to me. If I truely love her, how can I not trust her. In the same position she would trust me as she loves me. This was all very empassioned with tears streaming down her face.

Then ds is inspired and says he can use his fingerprint kit to prove it was not dd. She goes nuts claiming that she will not submit to this as it shows we do not love or trust her. When I say it sounds like a good idea and would vindicate her, she finally says she had forgotten she had eaten them.

This all sounds trivial I know, but you had to hear the performance to believe it. I am also concerned that it forms part of a pattern of hehavious and she lies a lot about small things (just to make herself look better).

AIBU to think this is beyond normal childish deceit? If so, what, if anything should I do?

Coffee - I find her behaviour worrying too and the level of manipulation beyond belief. That is what prompted the thread.

Thing is, I have actually no idea what to do. If she did it out of fear or low self-esteem then I should take a softly, softly approach - make her replace the sweets and talk to her about the consequences of her actions whilst reaffirming that we love her.

However, if she was doing it because she just didn't want to get caught and thinks she can manipulate her way out of it, then she should be in a whole world of trouble.

In general we have also always taken the line that the lie is worse than the original crime and will be punished accordingly.

I think your DD is punishing herself for her actions with being so distraught and I'm not sure that the situation warrants further punishment. As long as she's given her brother some sweets back and you have a chat about lying once it's all calmed down I would let it go unless the lying becomes more regular. It sounds like she's had a real shock by being caught out and hopefully she won't do it again.

DD3 lies a lot but she's only 6 so I'm sure she'll grow out of it. She doesn't get away with the lies and we talk a lot about 'Peter and the Wolves' situations. She became ill in the night last night and I didn't believe her so hopefully this will be a turning point.

Not sure what to suggest but I can totally see why you're concerned. Do you think doing it back to her would give her a lightbulb moment? So saying something like "Did you like the glittery chocolate cake in your lunch box today?" And when she says there wasn't one you can swear blind it was there and you made it with love and accuse her of not believing her own mother etc etc and then explain and have a convo about how she felt about you lying etc etc?

It's pretty hilarious, OP. But I understand your concern.

Hope it makes you feel better to hear this - my eldest son thought he had broken MIL's ipad (he hadn't). So he hid it under her couch. My poor MIL was going bonkers for weeks, tearing her house up looking for it. He finally confessed about a month later after we had interrogated him relentlessly (he'd been the last to see it). I was shaken by how skillful a liar he was.

I agree with everyone else that it's not the taking of the sweets that was important, or even the denial ,in itself, but the level of attempted emotional manipulation and the actual language involved - so dramatic and totally inappropriate for the situation! Where is she actually hearing this kind of highly emotional bargaining - "If you truly loved me, you would trust me..." , " I'm afraid it will damage our relationship" etc It sounds as if she has been watching adult soap operas (without you realising?) - and is transposing the dialogue to her own childish dilemmas.

On the other hand, your son has been gainfully employed, watching detective programmes!

It sounds so familiar. My daughter used to embroider all the time, and swear blind that she was telling the truth. Particularly memorable was on parents evening - aged 9 - when her new teacher told me how brave dd had been to drop a note in the 'special message ' box about the bullying last year. DD had never been bullied but thought it made her sound interesting.

And one New Year dh and I stayed over with family friends and I phoned dd in the morning as arranged, and she, aged 16, gave me a full account of her celebration nearby with one of her own friends and her trip home.
Oh, was that DD? says one of the children in the house? I saw her in xxx queuing for [night club]. !!!! Turned out she had borrowed ID, gone into town, booked the yha for a 3am nap and come home early enough to get my call.

She was/is a shocking drama queen, and manipulative, but also warm, emotionally intelligent and funny and regrets upsetting us in the course of doing what she wants to do. We tried everything we could think of as she grew up, along the lies of not being able to trust her, punishments, anger. In the end, we just shrugged and thought we'd taught her it was wrong and hurtful to lie and that was all we could do.

Eventually she just grew out of it. She doesn't need to lie to us now as she is more grown up , and we have a very close relationship and do laugh at her past stories. So I'd say to the OP don't worry too much.

I guess that lying may seem the only option for child who is "cornered" by an adult.

The best I got DS1 to fess up would be casually mentioning that his brother's money went missing, whilst I was sorting laundry, the semi casually asking if maybe the eind could have blown it into his room. He then said maybe domething like that could have happened, and went to "find" it.

After that I sat next to him and said: you probably know what I want to talk about. He cried as he felt so guilty, we talked about temptation and how it makes you feel if you do something naughty....

DH has a very different style and comes down like a ton of bricks!

And honestly, maybe my way is too soft.

Maybe You have to find a way to talk about these things without them jumping into defensive lying.

dojo I think my reasoning comes from being told this as a child myself, and it making me very much more determined to never ever admit to lying. I always wanted to do things differently with my own children, so I have always told them that they can tell me anything and that I will believe them, and I couple that with really making sure I don't get into situations where they feel they have to lie.

yy schokolade Goosey if you can, I'd cut dd some serious slack. Try not to take the manipulation personally,(easy to say I know) and if I was you I'd actually try and find an outlet for dd. I know this sounds strange, but if you can afford it, a half hour private lesson per week of something she really enjoys, be it singing, acting or dancing. If it's one on one she gets the teachers full attention, and yours as you can take her and bring her home. It can be a special thing you do for her, and will definitely help with self esteem.

Oh, this so reminds me of my eldest son (15 years old now, and on the autistic spectrum). When younger he would regularly lie about the most OBVIOUS things - but the best was the day when he said "Why won't you believe me, Mummy? I am making eye contact with you and everything!..."

DD really is a value-added liar isn't she? I would focus on the manipulation - and how unimpressive it is. Explain that no one likes liars as no one can believe them. And that making declarations a la Joan Collins, showing lack of respect to others, backfires as no one can respect her.

DS is a star.

When I was about 13 I found one of those daft scratch cards in the paper where everyone happens to be a winner. Thinking I'd hit the jackpot I proceeded to call the premium rate number to claim my potential squillions only to be told after a 10 minute recorded message that I'd actually won a timeshare or something to that effect. I promptly hung up & thought nothing more of it. A few weeks later my parents received their phone bill, lo and beh

One thing I'd avoid is the finger print kit. When you're caught out lying, you'd probably feel quite embarrassed and desperate about it, and this could lead to resentment to her brother. I would try and keep them separate. So tell him that you will sort it out, and then deal with her in private ifyswim, as I think it could mean that she could feel resentful. Although your DS has an amazing idea- a forensic investigator as a career? Or too many detective programs? (Although, I say this as the mother of a kid who, when we discovered our gerbil had been nurdered by its 'friend', decided the only course of action was to draw a white crayon line around its mangled body).

Whoops posted too early!

Lo and behold there was a call lasting x number of minutes to the grand sum of around £20. I swore and swore until I was blue in the face it was not me. My mum informed me that if the perpetrator did not own up she would be able to get a recording of the call from the phone company (obviously with no intention of ever doing so). The sheer horror promptly led to me writing a delightful grovelling letter which she still has in a drawer to this day - 11 years later!

My mum (very strict, controlling, manipulative, used humiliation as a punishment) used to set stuff up so she could engineer a situation to catch me out.

Agree with everything trashcan has said, completely right, I was backed into a corner time and again and told how untrustworthy I was.

For some reason it made me worse not better

I'm not like that now, but I was made to feel as though it was my fixed character, but she was wrong.

This really made me chuckle and smile.
You have an actress and a detective on your hands.

Hahaha oakmaiden brilliant!

I would take the lying very seriously. Not sure how old your daughter is but if she is doing it about the small things, it is possible she will do it for more important things. I know kids try and get away with stuff, but don't be fooled. We have 4 kids and 1 lies...this has become quite a problem and I think if we would have handled it differently when she was younger it might not have been such a problem...

Good to know dd is not the only one who does this.

I was talking about it with my mother and we concluded that dd has low self esteem and a need to check all the time that she is loved. I am not sure where this comes from but I wonder if it is because her brother is a high achiever and her attainments (on a strictly numerical scale) are more modest. I don't think we have ever celebrated his achievements more that hers but I wonder if she does not see it that way.

I honestly don't know where the manipulation or the vocabulary to do it comes from. She doesn't really watch television - we watch films as a family and she watches her favourite programmes (mostly The Worst Witch, Arthur, Jane and the Dragon and Redwall) on the IPad in bed with us at the weekend, so I'm pretty sure it's not from there. None of the immediate family do this.

I have told her that we need to sit down together and discuss what happened and why. Now I just have to work out what to say but am planning a softly softly approach rather than ranting at her.

She sounds as if she is very bright but very frightened of you, are you perhaps a little bit unapproachable with her? can she talk to you? children lie to evade the consequences, not to enable further malicious behavior.

Judy - that is how I think it sounds too. I think that is why I am so unsure how to proceed. What she did was wrong but clearly, there is an underlying problem there.

I really thought she could talk to me and that I was OK as a mum. However, clearly she many not see it that way.

My dd is 10 now and her manipulative ways arent too ba anymore. Horrendous when she was youger though!
Even then, i dont think it has stopped. Just more sophisticated.

My dd had a lot of issues with her dad not seeing her, and blamed me for the best part of her younger years. She lived with him for a year and realised it wasnt me. I think thats what made it all die down.
However, she is in therapy now for her manipulation and her anger.
All understandble. I think this is another story to add that there very well may be underlying issues regarding your dd.

I would go along the lines of self esteem issues, as she is getting to that age.
Her friends in school may use these tactics against her, and so she may be trying them out on her nearest and dearest.

Have to admit I lied about loads of stuff when I was a kid:
Sneaked sweets/chocolate and hid the wrappers (behind the radiator in the downstairs toilet) and denied all knowledge. My dad used to joke that the invisible man had been to visit again and eventually we just blamed the invisible man for everything.
Wanted a middle name so told everyone I had one (changed what it was on a weekly basis) because I was always crap at this playground game we played that involved the letters in your name.
Wanted to be older than the girl who shared a birthday with me, so told her I was born at 00.01 on the day of my birthday (was actually born at 23.42) - so we always sang "Happy Birthday" to me first and then her.
I also lied in my "news" book every single Monday. I never saw "playing in the garden" as exciting enough so used to invent fun (made up) stories. Got caught out when I said I'd been to my nan's birthday party and she was 44 (it was the oldest, most ancient age I could comprehend at the time. My mum was 34).

Don't think I ever played on the "if you loved me you would believe me" thing with my parents though. Probably because I thought it was pushing things too much and they knew I was lying anyway. Sounds like she's been watching grown up TV and is using a few key phrases from that.

Michsta laughig out loud at your post. I love the birthday one! Haha as for the invisible man. My parents called mine a ghost lol