Actually, I am being really unreasonable. However I would like to ask those who have experienced Angel Feathers to....

[DioneTheDiabolist]

...answer a few questions that I have.

1). What does it feel like when you see that feather?

2). What are your thoughts when this happens?

And

3). What would you say are the long term (if any) effects that you would attribute to these encounters.

I understand that this belief has been the subject of some ridicule here. I have no intention of ridiculing anyone. This thread has been inspired by a previous AIBU thread, but is not a thread about a thread. I am not a journalist. I am not seeking results to use in an academic submission or publication. What I am seeking is knowledge and understanding in the hope that I can use it to help others.

IABU for the following reasons:
I only posted in AIBU for the traffic. If MN rule that I have breached guidelines, can it be moved and not deleted.

And I ask the skeptics not to put people off answering honestly. If you think it necessary, I can start another thread for all your thoughts to be discussed. Perhaps the scientifically minded of you could look at this as an information gathering excersise.

That's fair enough hettie I'm not offended by that at all, you explained it well without being at all offensive

& I agree - I would have loved nothing more that find a logical reason for i, but none was found - it was the final straw on a long list of incidents that had me moving out of that house

"No curlew I hadn't - TBH now I have I can't be bothered - too much to go though & I really don't think you would see it anyway, if I did, then maybe I would make the effort, but I'm ill here & don't have the energy to waste my effort on what is probably a fruitless task - sorry"

Ah. So you can be as rude as you like. You can make accusations and insults. But you don't have any obligation or responsibility to back them up. Wow.

Yes - though I feel entitled as I become rude in response to the rudeness - I am also now seeing double on this thread & have things I need to do & don't have any more time nor energy to waste - I've gladly hung around longer to reply to posters who were questioning, but weren't been rude about it & as I said - if I thought you would take it on board if I pointed it out to you then I would gladly do so, but the evidence so far suggests you won't & I would be wasting me time & energy

So I'm done here - I'm happy to hold onto my beliefs & you are welcome to yours :)

a large sharp knife suddenly hurling itself across a room & smashing a mirror

I wasn't going to say anything, but this is not just about that post, but about every post I've seen over the years where people have had knives fly into bedposts, creatures hovering over the baby's cot, settees turning over and windows opening and closing on a regular basis.

So to all those people out there. "It didn't happen". I know it didn't happen because of the laws of physics, but perhaps more relevant is that I know it didn't happen because none of you would still be living there. No one is going to say "oh the ghost was rocking the baby again this evening and btw I've ironed your shirt for you".

If any of this happened you'd be running down the road screaming and you'd never let your kids go back there. You'd sleep in a ditch rather than leave them with a knife throwing ghost or one that throws heavy furniture.

I think what believers fail to grasp is how much we skeptics would LOVE to have evidence demonstrating that their beliefs are really true.

Our universe is amazing enough - but it would trillions of times more amazing if:

1. It was created by an intelligent being just for us
2. Death is not the end of our existence
3. Our deceased loved ones were trying to communicate with us
4. Illness could be cured by drinking tap water that's been clouted with a belt

...and so on.

If any of these things were actually true, I for one would love, love, love to know about it.

But the evidence is not only entirely absent - the stories themselves are stunningly banal.

Birds drop feathers. Sometimes they drop them, or they float on the wind, in the direction of a bereaved person. That's it.

How anyone can claim that such an event "defies logic" or proves an afterlife is completely beyond me. Really.

BackIn if you read my follow up response you will see that is exactly what I did do - in fact I fled barefoot & never went

Aaaaggghh I really need to get off here & do RL stuff

I love that's how you see it Hettie :) & no doubt there will come a time when you do see it, but I understand your need for science, I really do

Damn my migraine addled brain as I just can't remember the soddin names I need right now - but there is some very interesting scientific work currently happening in this sort of field by Russian scientists & it is proving the existence of the soul with specialist photography - they are working on it as a medical device but they have already recorded the soul leaving the body as a separate entity at the point of death - maybe google might throw up some info for you to peruse

You only have to look at Quantum Physics to realize how woo Science can be.

I would say strange, rather than "woo", sublime. It's very counter intuitive.

But with ref to your previous post - that is a good example of confirmation bias.

If you and I were walking in the woods together, I doubt I'd see the biblical imagery, even if it was pointed out to me. You do & attach meaning to it because of your beliefs.

(I know you know this, you said as much, I just think it's a perfect example).

If you study language and the language of imagery, you can begin to see how the same phenomena could be described in a scientific manner and a more spiritual manner.

Our language's etymology includes analogies, derived from religious and folk belief. I have sometimes thought upon how viruses act similarly to the way spirits are sometimes described in the Bible. Viruses are even believed to be able to affect the way we think and mental health. Using newer Scientific language could just be calling a rose by another name....

Google 'Russian scientist photographs soul leaving body' and what you get all links back to the same 2009 Russian news story (source not given) about someone called Konstantinos Korotkov at the St Petersburg Institute of Physical Culture, who does something called Kirlian photography, which apparently 'photographs gas-discharge visualisation'.

Everything Google brought up on the first couple of pages was from David Ickes, alien, UFO or 'Debunked' websites, nothing from a medical journal or reputable newspaper.

Hettie No argument there. I am a believer after all.

Yeah - the "Russian scientist photographs soul leaving body" story was debunked as rubbish ages ago.

www.amazon.co.uk/Etymologicon-Circular-through-Connections-Language/dp/1848313071/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384435014&sr=1-1&keywords=the+etymologicon

This book gives some interesting insights into our language. Amazing how belief is an intrinsic part.

Quantum Physics is not woo. It only looks that way to you because you don't understand any of it. HTH.

Cote Please explain it to me then....

Perhaps I've just a more sensitive woo detector!

The thing is - would a believer expect a soul to be something that could be photographed?

Photographs work by capturing light bouncing off things & creating an image (like our eyes & brains do).

For this to work there has to be material reactions. So the soul would need to be something, as in a material thing. Not just some supernatural energy, which - by definition - is non material, and not part of the natural world.

If souls exist, then not only can they not be photographed, we wouldn't expect them to be.

And if they could, then they are material parts of the universe detectable by science.

Same with these stupid "orbs" people are always impressed by.

You only have to look at Quantum Physics to realize how woo Science can be

And yet both digital cameras and USB flash memory work, both of them deeply reliant on quantum effects (measuring the quantum efficiency of silicon is key to designing sensors, and flash memory uses quantum tunnelling directly). They don't just work when your mum's died, or when you believe they work, or in mysterious ways you can't quite put your finger on, they just work. Millions of times a day, they just work.

Hettie There is the physical and there is the spiritual (in Christianity).

Spirits can act as an agent which affects physical matter, thus you get physical manifestation. However if you studied that manifestation, it is physical, whether or not you give a spiritual explanation, depends on your belief.

With Christian belief the physical and spiritual are tied up together, thus separation is difficult.

If you look at the psychology of eyesight or perception generally, it throws up some very interesting questions for example.

"Cote Please explain it to me then....

Perhaps I've just a more sensitive woo detector!"

I can't explain quantum physics. Because I'm not a physicist. But just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it's supernatural. We just haven't explained it yet.

curlew

But just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it's supernatural. We just haven't explained it yet.

Rather depends on your definition of supernatural and your beliefs concerning the limitations of the capacity for understanding within humankind.

If anything could affect matter at all, this would be a material interaction. Science can look back 13.5bn years to the very beginnings of the universe, but it can't detect a force that's bound up in all of us or manifests in such a way that it's visible to eyeballs?

.......depends on your belief Yep. That's the point.

And yes - agree with your last comment.

Eyes don't "see" - the brain takes the information & constructs an image. Sometimes that brain is heavily influenced by beliefs, or isn't quite sure what it's seen, so constructs around that.

To me life itself is supernatural.

Hettie* It is impossible to get through your day without beliefs, assumptions, prior assumptions or faith.

How would you plan for anything?