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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To post this for the anti Poppy brigade?

392 replies

Jakebullet · 09/11/2013 12:43

Just posted on Facebook by a poet friend of mine

The whistles could be heard
Along the trenches below
The young men weren't ready
But they had to go
Some held photos
Of loved ones back home
They charged together
Yet died alone
The bulkets n bombs
rang loud in their heads
Yet forward they ran
Running over the dead
A war against tyranny and for freedom they fought
A price was to be paid
Yet could never be bought
But their actions
Should be remembered
Even tho with regret
By wearing The Poppy
LEST WE FORGET

By Billy Isherwood

Love this poem......it's been in his head several days and this morning was finally written down.

OP posts:
ladymariner · 10/11/2013 18:19

Every year there seems to be some sort of controversy regarding people who want to wear poppies in some form. As far as I see it, it's not so much a political statement as a way of remembering the millions of people (on ALL sides of conflicts) who needlessly had their lives thrown away in the monumental clusterfuck that was the First World War, as well as all subsequent catastrophes.

I watched the old servicemen and women at the Cenotaph this morning and I wore my poppy, and I thanked them. Thank god they (probably) don't read threads like this and see how much their efforts are appreciated by some, not all, on here who are so grateful for the freedom of speech the world wars afford them.

Heartbrokenmum73 · 10/11/2013 18:28

ladymariner

You're reading things that simply aren't true. I don't wear a poppy. I still have the utmost respect for the people who died in WWI and WWII. And no one on this thread has said they don't appreciate the loss of lives for our freedom of speech. You're missing the point spectacularly.

ladymariner · 10/11/2013 18:51

Ok. I think we're going to have to agree to differ and go our separate ways on this. I'm feeling too emotional to have a proper discussion with anyone over this and so shall bow out of this thread, I'm finding it too upsetting. I wear a poppy to honour what Dad did in WW2 and because he's not here with us now I'm taking it, wrongly, as a personal insult Sad

I honestly do agree it is everyone's right to wear a poppy or not, but I just cannot see why you wouldn't. To say it is because of the government stance and the sending to war of conscripts is, in my opinion, 'spectacularly missing the point'....to me the poppy is a symbol of remembrance and ONLY that. No more, and certainly not political. I would laugh in the face of anyone who suggested my poppy wearing was anything thus.

Anyway, I wish you all a good night, I'm going to go back to Countryfile!!

fluffyraggies · 10/11/2013 18:59

I think symbolism is a tricky thing. Especially in such an emotive subject as war and death.

I can see both sides of this tbh. Very on the fence.

I don't understand why the wearing of a white poppy could be controversial. Even for folk who are happy to wear the red one. Surely we all want peace? Can someone explain?

(not trying to be poetic - genuinely Confused)

marzipanned · 10/11/2013 19:14

fluffy I might be mistaken here, but based on things I've heard from forces friends, they would probably view people wearing the white poppy as dismissive of what they've been through.

I suppose like the Vietnam vets returning to the US, many of them traumatised, suffering from PTSD and the effects of chemical exposure, being maligned for taking part in the war that had destroyed many of their lives (of course that was a different situation because conscription was in effect).

I don't agree with the wars that this country has fought recently, and I despise some of the behaviour that I've seen or read about from British and American soldiers, but, at the same time, just imagine going out there - seeing your friends killed, facing death yourself time and time again - and then coming back to what you perceive as animosity against you (whereas in reality, as this thread shows, the animosity is in fact against the governments and corporations choosing to send the forces to war and/or profiteering from it).

cory · 10/11/2013 19:38

ziggiestardust Sun 10-Nov-13 17:38:56
"I totally agree that the school of thought that 'they are all volunteers etc', but there does have to be something there (like the Poppy Appeal), which helps the wives and children left behind when the servicemen die. "

Well, how about the governments who sent them out there? Why should they expect charities to pick up the pieces from their decisions? If we are to have a standing army which regularly engages in war, then the extra medical care/support for widows/support for children/social support for ex-forces personnel should be part of that budget.

"Actually, there are also quite a few who don't really appreciate what they're volunteering for. You can join up at 16; how can you possibly appreciate what you're volunteering for?"

As it so happens, the UK is one of relatively few countries that allows enlisting at 16. There is absolutely no reason why we could not be brought in line with other Western countries - except that recruiting officers might find it harder to recruit candidates who are old enough to know what they are volunteering for.

I absolutely agree with what you are saying about the need to provide for soldiers: I just think it's bizarre that the government should be able to recruit them and send them out and not factor that cost in.

IamInvisible · 10/11/2013 19:45

Firstly not everyone's primary duty in the Armed Forces is to kill people, but then not everyone in the Armed Forces is a soldier either.

Secondly the RBL goes further than medical care, support for spouses, widows, help for veterans, children etc, so realistically there is absolutely no way that the Government would be able to provide what the RBL do. The Government should do more, I agree.

trish5000 · 10/11/2013 20:08

cory, I just cant take what you post on this thread seriously, if you think that nothing at all would happen to this country if we did not have any defence. Do you still stand by that sentence that you wrote?

Geckos48 · 10/11/2013 20:11

We haven't defending this country in over 50 years. All we do is attack.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 10/11/2013 20:14

dog meet bone
((sigh))

trish5000 · 10/11/2013 20:15

We are defending purely by having the armed forces. Have you thought about what would happen if we didnt have any at all?
Or is that actually what you really want, hence the posts on here, and that other thread of yours.

You dont actually want Britain defended.

PaperSeagull · 10/11/2013 20:18

Why shouldn't the government provide support for spouses and widows, help for veterans and their children, etc? It is criminally shameful that governments do not provide these services and depend on charities to do the work and raise the funds for them.

IamInvisible · 10/11/2013 20:23

They should paperseagull, but the RBL go further than that!

Geckos48 · 10/11/2013 20:29

No, I don't want Britain attacking. Having a standing army and a naval and raf force who patrol our borders is a different issue.

If anyone thinks we are over in Afghanistan 'defending' our country, they are brainwashed.

Stravy · 10/11/2013 20:34

Eli came back from Iraq
and tattooed a teddy bear onto the inside of his wrist
above that a medic with an IV bag
above that an angel
but Eli says the teddy bear won't live

and I know I don't know but I say, "I know"
cause Eli's only twenty-four and I've never seen eyes
further away from childhood than his
eyes old with a wisdom
he knows I'd rather not have

Eli's mother traces a teddy bear onto the inside of my arm
and says, "not all casualties come home in body bags"
and I swear
I'd spend the rest of my life writing nothing
but the word light at the end of this tunnel
if I could find the fucking tunnel
I'd write nothing but white flags
somebody pray for the soldiers
somebody pray for what's lost
somebody pray for the mailbox
that holds the official letters
to the mothers,
------fathers,
----sisters,

and little brothers
of Micheal 19... Steven 21... John 33
how ironic that their deaths sound like bible verses

the hearse is parked in the halls of the high school
recruiting black, brown and poor
while anti-war activists
outside walter reed army hospital scream

100, 000 slain

as an amputee on the third floor
breathes forget-me-nots onto the window pain

but how can we forget what we never knew

our sky is so perfectly blue it's repulsive
somebody tell me where god lives
cause if god is truth god doesn't live here
our lies have seared the sun too hot to live by
there are ghosts of kids who are still alive
touting M16s with trembling hands
while we dream ourselves stars on Survivor
another missile sets fire to the face in the locket
of a mother who's son needed money for college
and she swears she can feel his photograph burn

how many wars will it take us to learn
that only the dead return
the rest remain forever caught between worlds of

shrapnel shatters body of three year old girl
to
welcome to McDonalds can I take your order?

the mortar of sanity crumbling
stumbling back home to a home that will never be home again
Eli doesn't know if he can ever write a poem again
one third of the homeless men in this country are veterans
and we have the nerve to Support Our Troops
with pretty yellow ribbons
while giving nothing but dirty looks to their outstretched hands

tell me what land of the free
sets free its eighteen-year-old kids into greedy war zones
hones them like missiles
then returns their bones in the middle of the night
so no one can see
each death swept beneath the carpet and hidden like dirt
each life a promise we never kept

Jeff Lucey came back from Iraq
and hung himself in his parents basement with a garden hose
the night before he died he spent forty five minutes on his fathers lap
rocking like a baby
rocking like daddy, save me
and don't think for a minute he too isn't collateral damage
in the mansions of washington they are watching them burn
and hoarding the water
no senators' sons are being sent out to slaughter
no presidents' daughters are licking ashes from their lips
or dreaming up ropes to wrap around their necks
in case they ever make it home alive

our eyes are closed
america
there are souls in
the boots of the soldiers
america
fuck your yellow ribbon
you wanna support our troops
bring them home
and hold them tight when they get here

marzipanned · 10/11/2013 20:36

trish what exactly do you mean when you say that we are defended purely by having armed forces? There are several nations globally without armed forces. None has been invaded or attacked as a result.

I do agree that Britain is defended by intelligence work. So, some overlap with the armed forces at the highest levels. Some people would also argue that, e.g., Trident is defending Britain. And of course special forces involved in eliminating high up Al Qaeda threats (again, for example).

But would Britain even be concerned about the threat of Islamic terrorism if we hadn't been so active in wars in the gulf? I think it's a problem that Britain still wants to be a major player on the world stage. By going into wars we open ourselves to attack - by which I mean terrorist attack, the only kind of attack we have faced in recent years. It's a bit of a vicious circle. What if we had decided to maintain a stance of neutrality after WWII?

Geckos48 · 10/11/2013 20:43

Given how secular and multi/cultural Britain is, it is highly unlikely we would be targeted by terrorists if we were not making ourselves known in the worst way in the Middle East .

ziggiestardust · 10/11/2013 20:45

cory and papergull you are totally right. The government should be taking more responsibility. These funds should not have to exist, and be paid for by the public. But they do. That's a whole other thread.

And the enlistment thing? Abso-fucking-lutely. You're totally right. I think a lot of people in the armed forces who end up instructing phase 1 training would think the same.

I also agree with the casualties on the other side; it's horrific. There needs to be some kind of help for all those poor people caught in the crossfire. I think channel 4 showed a documentary not too long ago about it all, which was really well presented and informative.

But none of this solves the fact that a lot of people enlist for perhaps not the right reasons, and a lot of them don't really have a huge amount of other options other than the armed services. Granted, they are still volunteers. But like I say; the family they leave behind; namely the children, are not. Something or someone has to help them if their parent passes away. The government should step in and help out, but they don't. It's left up to these charities.

trish5000 · 10/11/2013 20:50

Geckos48. You didnt answer the question. Therefore I am assuming you dont want Britain defended.
Do you want it attacked? wow. cant believe I am writing this Shock

Geckos48 · 10/11/2013 21:02

I think you've misread my post.

Which both answered your question and said nothing about wanting Britain to be attacked.

trish5000 · 10/11/2013 21:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

daisychain01 · 10/11/2013 21:07

Our DS got up this morning, got into his Sea Cadets uniform and we all went off together to the Remembrance Day parade, in the beautiful Autumn sunshine. Call us simplistic but we didn't give a thought at 11.00 today to the politicians, the "career armed forces" nor the motives for going to war.

All we thought about for 2 minutes were people who we will never meet and who we will never be able to thank for our freedom. Everything else is irrelevant and a diversion.

We had a lovely day, feeling grateful. I don't see how all the negativity about poppies (wearing them, not wearing them, what colour they are ....etc) moves anything forward.

I suppose it is like religion, all very personal and can be interpreted in many different ways depending on a person 's philosophy.

marzipanned · 10/11/2013 21:10

trish, gecko did answer your question:

*No, I don't want Britain attacking. Having a standing army and a naval and raf force who patrol our borders is a different issue.

If anyone thinks we are over in Afghanistan 'defending' our country, they are brainwashed.*

But you haven't answered mine. What exactly are you afraid of?

Geckos48 · 10/11/2013 21:21

This is generally what I find on these threads, I answer a question as I understand it and am told continually that I haven't answered it.

Whistleblower0 · 10/11/2013 21:29

Yes daisychain, you do have a very simplistic view..