To be utterly clueless as to how to handle dd8- talk me through how you would

[Retropear]

Dd8 can be difficult at home.She can be nasty and unreasonable to her brothers 10,rude and intolerant to all of us.She is also incredibly lazy and has a temper.She can be lovely,has a lovely qwerky personality and is amazingly kind and gentle with animals.

She is extremely unmaterialistic,not into sweets or gadgets.I obviously don't smack.She answers back to the death lately with eye rolling and hand flourishes. As a result little things generally turn into a big deal as I struggle to find ways to punish her that actually bother her.

Soooooo this morning after a hair brushing upset(I was apparently not being gentle enough,IMO I was and firmly told her so) which made us late she then threw her brothers book down the side of her bed as he was first at the sink for teeth brushing wtaf!Just why?

It took several repeat apologies to get one in the correct tone and then a load of belligerence. I then took her teddy off her so she could experience what it felt like.She screamed bloody murder and I ended up screaming back.She ended up losing a possible hot chocolate out for possible hard work and a sleepover because she doesn't give a shiny shit about her behaviour or the consequences.

I should have all the answers but I just don't.Twin boys were a doddle compared to this.Why the nastiness and time wasted on arguing,answering back etc?I have explained over and over that she makes little things 10 x worse.I have also explained that I won't let rudeness or spiteful acts go- she will be punished.

So talk me through it,where am I going wrong?How would you deal with her?

It sounds like you have a negative relationship with her. Do you praise or thank her for lots of small things when on task? Are you spending any quality one to one time with her? Do you have fun and a laugh together?

We tend to do room time to give time to calm down. Also no screen time (TV or whatever) sometimes. I also have a no play dates rule if behaviour is rude.

Have a snoop round amazon books and see if the are any to help you understand frustrated preteens. She doesn't sound that happy.

How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk is good.

Thank you sooooo much all,loads of really helpful suggestions.

Just one thing,the boys kind of expect me to do something when she is nasty to them ie a consequence.

If I ignore too much they'll feel hard done by.How do I handle that?

So re chucking the book,one poster suggested she get it.I told her to but she said she couldn't find it. What should I have done then as said brother was anxious(needed it for school)? I panicked as we were late and lost it,wrong I know.But she knew she had DS and I over a barrel.

Explain it is difficult to brush someone elses tangled hair without some discomfort. Offer to let her do her own hair, or at least brush it. If it is really causing such an issue, suggest a more practical bob or shorter haircut for a while. Ensure that she goes to school looking a mess if she can't get it sorted on time. Don't allow her to make you all late, she'll be getting appearance conscious and some ribbing at school will hopefully ensure it doesn't happen again.

Boys are different - deal with it. They tear the place up but bless them, they are usually less complicated souls as pre-teens. There is no point in comparing them.

Eye-rolling - do you ever do it back? You could dish it back at her and make a joke of it ? I know I did at lot of it at her age. It got me into a whole heap of trouble at school. It's just a stage, I'd ignore it as much as possible.
Eye of Newt's post sums it all up really well should have read that first
Losing the sleepover - only you know if it was an over-reaction to ongoing stroppiness. It will certainly be linked in your DD's mind to some hairbrushing and a book. Some sort of merit/demerit system linked to treats might be a more balanced view. She's a bit old for sticker charts but if you still have younger children, there's no harm in including her.

Just send her to a different room if she does something. The boys will see that as a consequence. Leave her a long time if she needs it.

But what are you doing to make her feel special and loved?

If my dds are nasty to each other I used to do this fake cough thing and say AHEM excuse me she (whoever did it0 would stop what she was doing saying I would have marched her over to get the book personally that is not on , retro you sound knackered with it all

Also get a tangle teaser for hair. Pulls less

Lastly you need to stop losing the plot. Be fair and firm but don't shout or get emotional. Stay calm

My DD is similar and I tend to ignore - my DD is a very sweet, kind child but can't manage any confrontation and tends to rudeness when trying to express her views. My DD simply can't manage a polite apology when she has got cross and therefore I personally take the grumpy tone (this is a step forward from no apology at all and IMO they are only 8 and are still in the process of learning how to manage relationships/ communication).

I totally agree with whoever said about the punishment making them feel like a victim; my DD absolutely takes it like this - so it is totally pointless for her.

I have got to the point where I literally just walk away. Eg last night I asked DD to wash her hair in the bath "No, I don't have to do it, it's Wednesday". So I ask her again. "No, I'm not going to do it." And again "No I did it on Sunday". So I just told her her hair needed washing and walked away - I came back 5 mins later and it was half washed so I said "Would you like me to wait in your room?" - she said she did, then called me to ask if I could help her out of the bath (hair was clean and conditioned by then).

Nastiness to her brother (5) - I tell her off straight away and if it is repeated I will implement a consequence.

Retro we are clashing a lot.

My sister has twin boys too,very angelic.Mine are pretty good most of the time.I do feel she is in a twin boy sandwich and she is the only girl/granddaughter.She's always with boys.

I find boys easier and that is baaaaad I know.

Reassuring to hear we're not alone.

Dreading the teenage years,lets hope I've had the change by then as dp may well run for the hills(if I don't best him to it).

As an aside I do think dp is soft with her which doesn't help.He has been using zero tolerance for a while though.

What mrsjay said or I would have got it myself. And then perhaps she could have explained to the teacher why you were late?

Lastly you need to stop losing the plot. Be fair and firm but don't shout or get emotional. Stay calm

this I know mornings can be fraught but if you calm down and dont scream and shout at her then you will all get out the door without less hassle and drama, maybe she feeds of the drama some children do

I would have got it myself.

I might have done this too and not give any attention at all just picked it up and left although her brother might have seen her get away with something

No, you don't find boys easier-just your boys!

They have different temperaments.

My son is calm, placid, reasonable.

My daughter, well isn't!

She's a teen now & can still strop & be nastyit's best ignored tbh.

She doesn't mean it, just wants to vent.

But she is also so kind, thoughtful, well just lovely.

I think the main thing is to not escalate the problem. For instance just find the ...'book' and talk about the bad behaviour later, when everyone is actually listening.

Are her brothers older and do they tease her?

My advice is to treat you daughter with: lots of love, laughter and working together to find answers.For her to know that the World is full of wonder not bogged down with rows at home in the morning with those you love the most. I wonder how she felt at school all day.

I would try to go for consequences and avoiding conflict areas.

Hair brushing:
either - she lets you do it
or - she does it properly
or - you get it cut into a nice easy to brush short bob

There must be something that she values - treats out, staying up, TV.

If she throws books around, she tidies them up / replaces them if damaged / has hers removed.
If she can't show she can behave nicely, she doesn't get treats out in public.

Try to catch her doing good, and praise her for it.
Ignore her when stroppy if you can.

Arghhh...it's hard. She sounds like she may be very sensitive (poss unlike your boys).

I think the trick is to balance the punishments/ corrections with a lot of praise. I think the aim is for 1:9!!! Now, there's a challenge. I have found with my kids that the more encouragement I give them, the more co-operative they are. We can end up (as we did before half term) living in a very negative environment of constant 'fights' between me and the kids (individually) and constant punishments. It's horrible for everyone.

With the incidents this morning I would have:

• Apologised for not being gentle with the hair and tried to be more gentle (rather than being defensive)
• Dealt with the book by saying it wasn't nice but not added the punishment

I would pick your battles and personally, the eye rolling and lack of respect would be the one I come down on hardest - for the time being.

I would also teach your boys to be able to express to her how things made them feel. I am trying to do with my kids, so they can say, "That really hurt my feelings." It's good for them to learn how to express feelings and it is good for your dd to see that it has an impact when she says mean things, or does mean things. She may not show that it affects her, but it will.

I think your boys need to learn that you don't always intervene. Also, when you do intervene with serious incidents, make sure the other child is not watching the telling off or the punishment. That should be between you and dd only.

The book is harder because it was something which needed sorting then and there. I would have found it myself and then said we need to talk about it later.

Yes thanks Kinnane I do generally try to fill her life with wonder and love.However I have 3 dc not just one.No they don't tease.They bicker sometimes though.In actual fact she is more of a teaser.

I'm sure she felt shite all day.I did and I'm sure her brother did.Feeling crap is pretty much what you get when you cause stress and upset.Her brothers feel shite when she breaks their Lego models and calls them horrible names for little reason.

We generally have ok mornings(mornings used to be a trigger as she hates getting up and she's actually vastly improved in the morning routine thing) however today was awful and when we get behaviour like I have described a few times a week I want to know the best way to handle it.

I asked for advice not to be made to feel any crappier.

I find her bewildering and clearly I am not alone in being unable to fathom 8 year old girls.

Merry good idea re the telling off away from her siblings, I hadn't thought of that.

Also re the eye rolling what would you say and do if she just repeats it after being told not to?

You said your DS' 'expect' her to be punished for bad behaviour. I would bet your DS' are winding her up on the sly! Things like she may have casually mentioned she was going to bathroom - and suddenly they are there - she's throwing a wobbly and they are all innocent and upset about the book she threw. It's a vicious circle, they know she'll react like that so wind her up, so you get cross with her and they get to play the innocent even more.

I would try making no fuss about things like that. Tell your DS to get it himself and ignore her.

I'm suggesting this as my friend has 2 DDs close in age ( 1 placid and 1 active volcano!) the placid one is always winding her sister up on the sly and loves playing miss angelic when her sister blows. Sadly I feel this makes her sister worse as she becomes angry and is stuck in that situation of the 'naughty one'.

I'm wondering if your DS' also don't react to her behaviour and don't get a reaction to reporting her behaviour she'll find other ways of getting all of your attention.

I'm not saying let her throw things etc! Just that she threw the book and then got an audience whilst she made a song and dance over getting it back. Maybe next time - "I know it was thrown DS, get ready for school and I'll get it" ignore his fuss and her as well. Talk nicely to those talking and having a nice conversation.

I remember a teacher at school who was brilliant in these situations ( and that was a long time ago!) I remember her dealing with a similar situation.

Girl 1: miss tell girl 2 she's being mean to me.
Teacher: girl 2 your being mean to G1. (G2 smirking)
G1: no miss tell her she's being really mean and upsetting me.
T: G2 your being really mean and upsetting G1.
G1: (stamping her feet) I hate it when she's mean and I really don't want to talk to her or play with her anymore.
T: now that is a very sensible thing and I wouldn't want to play with someone whose being mean either.
G2: I don't like G1 as she's a tale tell.
T: we'll G2, in future I don't think G1 will tell tales but I know she won't play with people who are mean.

Basically G2 was your DD who felt like a victim as she was told on, take away that victim status and all they have left to work on is there own behaviour.

Merry I do tend to show the boys I'm dealing with it but maybe it makes it worse ie they will tell tales more and it will make her more venomous.

agree that you need to stop escalating things.

With the hair, I would say" sorry sweetie, here, is this better?" whilst trying to brush a bit more gently. rather than escalate things and denying her feelings.

With the books, let her go and get them straight away and apologise.

Taking her teddy away would never calm things down, but again, would escalate things.

I find that at this age, it is important to children that they feel that you listen. So if they say something hurts, acknowledge that feeling, even saying things like " that must be annoying for you". If she is upset at her brothers being at the sink again first, reassure her that she will have plenty of time to do her teeth once they are finished, again, acknowledge that it may be irritating for her they got there first, but that it is not a big deal.

I am a great believer in un-escalating things. Sometimes, when they are too upset/wound up, all you can do is give them a hug, say you understand they feel it is unfair but then, once they are calm, explain why it IS fair. I find kids this age, once they are calm, understand a reasonable explanation like "obviously you just can't throw your brother's books around, how would you feel if they did that to you?"

Maybe I am a softie though

X posted with you.