to ask for your help in writing an objection to Operation Christmas Child?

[autumnwinds]

Our local primary is supporting OCC and has published a piece in the village magazine explaining how wonderful it is and how much the local children enjoy it, what a difference it makes to needy children, and inviting local residents to donate too. The piece omits any reference to the evangelical christian literature that is distributed with the parcels and the way that the gifts are used as a tool to agressively convert recipients to christianity.

I would like to write a reply for publishing in next month's issue trying to give the full picture so that people can make an informed choice about whether to donate to this charity, and to suggest some alternatives that don't come with the religious baggage.

As I don't have a child at the primary yet I'm not sure about tackling the school itself about it (they are not a faith school, so not sure they should be supporting this). DC will be starting next year so I might save that fight for next xmas!

Anyway does anyone have any ideas about a few lines I could write, something succinct and unemotional? I feel quite cross about it but don't want to come across as an equally fundamentalist atheist. I've been looking for some evidence on the web for people who want to know more but most of it is not well referenced...

My question to you, Brian, was how OCC picks which areas of the world to target and I asked why you might choose to take shoeboxes to people in a very remote area of Nepal, where possibly 80% of them will already have a religion and, one would imagine, will not need to hear the "good news" of the gospel.

My question about how OCC measures up to other charities was to mydog.

but people do change religions. look at lauren booth converting to islam or someone converting to Judaism in the UK who may have been a nominal christian.

someone must have brought Hinduism to them originally. maybe they followed budhism before or are of no religion

They don't have to become a christian. it is not 15th century south America with the conquistador forcing the incas.

local churches are working to guidelines laid down by Samaritan's Purse in seeking not to cause offence or upset in the very communities where they live
What are these guidelines?

alemci

I think you need to do a little research on world religions before you post any of your theories again!

We are not taking here about people living in privilege in the first world, such as Lauren Booth, changing religion by their own choice. We are talking about children being told the shoebox full of non-essential items has been given to them because god loves them.

We are also talking about an organisation that produces a video equating Hinduism with "darkness".

A child presented with a box of tat, together with a leaflet of bible stories, is going to find it hard to say no to being evangelised to, don't you think?

dawn, see my questions upthread.

I've asked Brian several times to give me examples of when OCC might consider they are causing upset or offence, and therefore decide not to give out their bible literature. He says it's up to the local churches to decide.

But this is an organisation that thinks nothing of denigrating Hinduism in order to push their "Good News" agenda, so I would imagine what you or might consider offensive would be par for the course for OCC.

Because Brian has been particularly evasive on this issue, my guess is that the leaflets are always given out. After all, Brian has not given me any examples of when the opposite is true.

Bloody hell. That OCC Nepal video is rather, um, eye opening.

In particular though, the way it emphasises that the gift giving is just a way to get their foot in the door. The goal is not to give gifts to needy children, but to use the gifts as a tool to convert them to Christianity from the darkness of Hinduism.

To be honest, I dont think Brian is being evasive. As a fundamentalist he genuinely does not understand the points of view expressed on this thread.

A true Christian would see that the joy is in the givng of the gift, the smile on the children's faces, and not need strings attached.

I think you're probably right about Brian, itsall.

I'm just a bit of an optimistic and I really believed that he would accept that there are other viewpoints to his.

But he doesn't, does he? I expect OCC believes that offending a few million Hindus is a small price to pay for spreading the word of the lord

I take your point Rhonda but I still think my point is perspective is valid as well

also the people in Nepal may not think how you or I think or be offended.

Which particular point of yours are you referring to, alemci?

Why would OCC want to convert Hindus or anyone who has a perfectly good religion already. After all I've been lectured told by Christians that it's all the same god worshipped in individual ways.

Surely they are not suggesting that some religions are false? That could so easily backfire.

Is it worth taking the risk, though, alemci?

Would you be happy if someone criticised your personal beliefs and then justified themselves by saying they thought you probably wouldn't be offended? Surely better not to offend people at all?

Back, I don't think fundamentalist Christians think in the same way as normal Christians.

yes I see Rhonda but from a christian perspective occ or local churches want to share their faith and how it makes a difference to their lives.

I can see where you are coming from as well and it needs sensitivity and tact not just blundering in

Rhonda the point about Lauren Booth having a choice.

I think you're right there.

I just got round to watching the video. It's pretty on the surface (smiling kids etc) , but when you think about what it's saying it's creepy.

I spend a lot of time arguing against all religion, but in truth the average christian I encounter in the real world is nothing like that.

If occ were asking parents to fill a xmas shoe box to spread the word of God, that would be honest. That is not what they do though

BackOnlyBriefly - I think the problem is that in some parts of the world, including large areas of the USA, it is perfectly acceptable to say that some religions are false and should be replaced by Christianity.

Samaritan's Purse is based in North Carolina, which is overwhelmingly protestant, often fundamentalist. A large proportion of the population there would see Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Jews and probably even Catholics and other non-born-again Christians as damned for eternity, so would think they were doing a great thing by bringing the gospel to heathen children in places full of darkness like Nepal.

But what plays well in North Carolina does not go down so well with audiences in the UK. Brian and his colleagues are obviously aware of that, which is why OCC presents itself very differently in the USA and UK, but unfortunately for him, the wonders of the internet mean it is not hard for us to find the materials intended for the much more hardline religious US market.

I know, Rhonda but I somewhat naively hoped there may be an answer. No comments on funding the gay marriage issues or women's issues for that matter.

So overall, dawn, I think having Brian on this forum has been a massive let-down.

Wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall at his next performance management review, though

Do excuse me, Rhonda, I'm just wiping hot tea from the screen!

exexpat, interesting point about how it is presented for different audiences.

We are different in the UK. Even though I see it on the news and websites it's hard to imagine the err strength of feeling in US religious communities.

I'll admit I haven't been keeping a great eye on this thread so apologies if I'm going over old ground...

Imagine the scene...

A group of people pitch up at a school in a UK town.

On their van they have presents for the children, all donated by other people all over the world. The kids are excited, mum and dad can't afford much this year and these gifts are luxurious by the standards they are used to.

The people giving them out tell the kids they are Hindus/Muslims/Buddhists/Jews (add a religion as suits) and their God has provided these gifts because their God is good (unlike any God the children or their parents may believe in as, if their God was so good they wouldn't have gone without in the first place would they?)

Oh and, by the way, if you kids can come along to a twelve week course and persuade your families to come along too, that'd be great...

Can you imagine the outcry? The DM would have a field day! What's the implication in the children's eyes? If you don't come, you may not get a gift next year because this new God will know you don't believe in him?

An outcry if it happened here but it's OK to do that in another country? Why? Because they are 'heatherns'? Because their religion shouldn't be respected because it's 'lesser'? If this were about giving a Christmas present they'd be given out with, perhaps, a gather round story about why Christmas exists and why we give presents. The boxes should not be used as bribery to make the kids think their 'God' is inferior because they don't provide gifts. God did not provide the gift. Humans provided the gift because THEY care and many of those providing may well be from the very religions that the video, and therefore presumably, the organisation, appear to look down upon.

Thanks for posting the video, what an eye opener. I'll admit, hanging my head with shame, that I've never looked at the organisation website before. I did do a shoebox about three years ago through out local church. Then I found out about the leaflet insert and refused to do any more as I felt uncomfortable that my little bundle would include things I hadn't put into it. Now I know how much more is involved, it feels sneaky to be honest. I certainly won't be doing this again and I'll make sure DS's school is aware of my discomfort with it if, as will probably happen, he brings a request home for a box later in his school life. I'd rather send my cash where it'll give the kids a life rather than be used to drag the child into another religion intent on controlling his life - and this is from a church goer...

The way the boxes are used needs to be changed.

Londonjax - exactly. If that happened in the UK, imagine a Muslim charity doing it. But these are poor, third world children with dodgy religions - and it's Christianity which is ok as it is a proper religion after all.

Been talking about this to my husband who has no idea about OCC. Starting showing I'm the Nepal video and he was disgusted and didn't even want to watch any more than the first 20 seconds or so.

Think I might use that video to pt my point across to the school.