To wonder why non-believers send their doc to faith schools

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Not a thread about a thread but thought whilst reading a thread when reading 'dc goes to a faith school and comes home with questions but we don't believe'.

Why send your child to a school where you do not believe what it is teaching?

coupon, that was then, and this is now.

The social context is completely different now, as is the number of people who are actively involved in religious activity (and not the numbers in censuses who describe themselves as Christian), and therefore the need for even more religious intervention in our children's education.

Isawitch - yeah - lovely - but my dc will never get the benfit of that or of going to local secondary and instead be shunted across the borough because faith school these days are not like this in areas of high population.

My ds will still suffer being forced at the age of 11 in london to go across borough (thinking tubes, buses - all the cost and the fear and the time) whilst I'm paying (subsidising) for kids to go to schools in my son's area). Because, basically, my son is either of no religion and of multiculture (and not how I new it). I'm dismayed for him.

I come from a long line of atheists. I'd probably describe myself as agnostic - sitting on the fence, hedging my bets! The village school is Christian, and excellent, so there was no question of me sending my kids anywhere else.

I don't really see the big deal. They learn bible stories, they quote Godly stuff to me, and if they ask I tell them that some people believe and some don't. DS1 is 8 and has decided he doesn't believe, he's come to that conclusion on his own.

As well as the RE (in which they learn about other faiths too) they are taught about the importance of being kind and considerate to other people. Whether or not I believe in the religion, you can't argue with those values.

Out of curiosity, the people who feel strongly enough to remove their kids from RE and assemblies - do your kids believe in Father Christmas?

In answer to the OP, because it is across the road and we are not in catchment for any other schools. Rural area.

Our nearest school is CofE and it has a wraparound childcare facility attached, which we use.

SuburbanRhonda I've never heard anyone on here express anything positive about the fact that the church stepped in to educate so many. Only complaints about the present. So I think the historical context is worth a mention at least. If the churches were the ones who bothered to set up the schools then why should they be told it's no longer any of their business? Many people do describe themselves as religious and that's the way they see themselves even if they're not devoutly in church each week. So to remove religion entirely from public life would not be proportional.

And let's not forget that church school or not, the National Curriculum requires information about all religions to be given to children. The religion in the average C of E school is usually in small quantity, middle-of-the road and based on positive values such as care for one's neighbour, patience, kindness and so on. Yes a secular school can of course promote decent values too, but I'm just saying that the C of E school isn't likely to be putting forward anything "way out".

why did the church step in to educate so many? was it to assist the churches falling numbers in the early 19th century?

I'm not sure what the reason was during the 19th century, ivykaty44, but it's certainly the reason why today they are seemingly so excited about the possibility of being able to run more new academies and free schools.

coupon, I don't know how much time you've spent in a classroom in the UK recently, but you would probably be shocked at how little time is spent in RE lessons discussing anything other than Christianity, especially in VA schools. And btw, as far as I know, the are no secular schools in this country, more's the pity.

Rhonda - I'm not worried about the creationist comments, he gets to read Richard Dawkins at home.

Coupon Religion is responsible for a lot of things historically, both good and bad. One of the good things they did was to set up schools, however I don't think that should now entitle them to chose to educate only the children of their members when the State is footing 90% of the bill.

If they were happy to educate local children without discrimination I wouldn't have an issue with it, but with the increasing pressure on places in many parts of the country, their special privileges to cherry pick pupils makes a bad situation much worse.

why does this argument re religious schools always boil down to faith v non faith.

In the reality of our educational system today in many of cities why doesn't it concern people that many children are EXCLUDED from state school because they are either the wrong faith or of no faith and the parents of these kids are paying taxes for their exclusion?

I couldn't give two hoots about the faith kids are taught because I think kids get their culture from home, however I do worry that in many areas so many kids are excluded just because they from the wrong cultural backgrouond and I'm funding this.

It's corruption in my view.

For those on this thread that think there are faith schools and secular schools - there are no secular schools in this country. All state schools are required to hold collective worship of a 'broadly Christian nature'. The UK as a whole is not yet a secular society either.

Endoplasmic, good to hear your DS is getting the right balance, but (a) not all children do, and (b) my understanding of the national curriculum is that it expressly forbids the use of creationist views to explain scientific fact.

That's why I would be talking to the governors about that particular teacher - sounds as if there are some retraining needs there.

Yes, useless, as I said upthread

I grew up south wales dont rememember any church in wales schools apart from one oscure village my cousin went to and council threatened to shut down.

The town rc primary was always very popular 2of my cousins and few freinds went there they were non rc bt got their kids baptised to get in.

Then the council reformed the schools and shit down a few so theres 2nice middle class primaries everyone clambers to get into, 2super primries and 1welsh meduim where hardly any of town has any interest or speaks welsh.

But back in day my non denominatation juniors had harvest in the baptsit or methodist chuch and xmas in the church in wales.

The town only had 1 crap comp.

again some did bus jourmey to one of few rc seniors s was good school 1 of my cousins went there the rest of us went town dump or private.

Fastfoward to now im suburban bristol.

I sort of belive not sure why hubbys athiest.
But at time of admissions the local rc primary had lovely head, seemed quite small, lovely grounds dd1 went attached preschool and toddler group, 10min walk from our house at first hubby was skeptical then we looked round afew local schools. decision was made

late baptism summer before school applications back in wales at church in wales chucrh as preist knew my family my great aunt was regular there he knew my family well so of course he would baptise her no questions asked.
So heavily pregant nerarly in labout my pfb was baptised back then forms had to be in end october find out 1st march another mum was fuming when let slip at toddlers as she was non rc and worried her child wouldent get in.

Weirdly was undersubscribed so everyone who wanted to get in got a place.

dd1 wasvery happy there durng reception teaching was bit erratic.
annnoyed mum hated the faith aspect and moaned about cathod and anything religious they did which made me chuckle.
I was on the pta for 2years we had to pray at every meeting.
The rc parents could be cliquey.
it was voluntary aided so they could control their own admissions.

but year 1 dd 1 had bad year
school had bad ofsted followed by bad chuch inspection and social services investigation. sensed head was on way out.

So looked at other schools nearish coe came up out catchement, good rep had a space we jumped at it.

The new schools smaller only goes church once a term, has lots of other faiths feels more multicultural and less religigopus definatly less strict than old rc school. Dd1 truly belived only today she said god be dissapointed in me.

The services in church are not too bad even female vicar other parents dont seem very pro faith its just their nearest school and very small.
One said to me its very faith lite not rammed down their throats but both head ad deputy head came from community school.
Ironicaly the community school they came from parents are complaining there too much faith.

Old r school heard they now gone more extreme with faith due to church report, have new rc head and one parent said they were not happy the re lessons are denying evolution and even the rc parents stll have their grumbles.

I think lots choose faith as either school gets good results, its nearest or its smaller than the community prmaries with attached special needs units my nearest community primary is big and speacialises with kids with behavioural problems.

seniors the whole city has 2 coe and 2 rc all oversubscribed and obscure locations but good results and community seniors schools are patchy at best.

Its just archaic tbh, isn't it?

Oh yes, the children can be educated, but they'll have to worship our god and tug their forelocks for the privilege

I mean FFS what is the point of the religious aspect if they don't think it'll convert them? If they really truly believe that the pushing of a religious agenda on young children will have no effect at all on their choices about faith - why do it then???

The head of DD's school was most unimpressed when I told her I might be a card carrying Guardian reading general yoghurt weaving lefty but I'd be complaining to her if she was telling the children to sing The People's Flag before lessons started every day, and that I failed to see the difference between that and telling them to pray.

She was adamant it was 'different' but couldn't explain why

It's inconceivable that church-run schools are unaware that most parents choose their school not because it is a church school, but because it is, or is perceived to be, performing better academically than other schools in the area.

So the drive should surely be not to make more schools religious, but to make more schools good or better. Or is that stating the bleeding obvious?

Queen, I think they'd say the point is that a Christian education is intrinsically better, because it teaches children about morality, being kind and considerate, etc. regardless of whether they come out a card-carrying member of the god squad.

Not that I believe that for a moment!

Those delving into the history of the Church of England establishing large numbers of schools in the last two centuries, which are now funded by the state, may like to reflect on where the Church got the money to do that - donations from the local community, and a privileged position in the apparatus of the State.

It can be argued that actually it would be entirely appropriate that, given the hugely changed social fabric of England since the establishment of church schools, the church would be doing a moral thing in handing them back to the communities whence much of the original funding derived. That would end the practice where in some areas, non-churchgoing children are discriminated against and are forced to be educated well away from their local area and community because religious admissions, and concentrations of church schools, distort the overall admissions pattern.

My local church is pretty open about the fact that it encourages the go-to-church-for-2-years-before-eldest-turns-five crowd; it's good for bums on pews.

I imagine lots of reasons. Results and convenience being the top ones . That would be the same reasons as the ' oh look I am pregnant and by total coincidence I have rediscovered the faith I was bought up in' bunch who I would imagine make up a bigger number in the school than those without faith. It is the case here where the local primary with the best rep is c of e. They are all falling over them selves in church to get a place. Fast forward to year 6 and the majority decide faith is not so important when they opt for the local non denominational comp which totally out strips the local c of e secondary. Total hypocrisy.

I detest faith schools for what they do to the community it is nothing more than an insurance for getting bums on pews .

To the people who are saying why should they fund a faith school through their taxes if their child cannot get into it I ask the question, why should people in poorer areas pay taxes to fund a school that they cannot get into due to the fact that they could never be able to afford to live in the catchment area, or the catchment area has been 'moved' to exclude their council estate ( this has happened to me Sister).

I can't read this thread as the very existence of state funded institutions which are allowed to.pick pupils based on which fictional, misoginistic, vengeful deity their parents believe in makes me so angry I can hardly breath. I am seriously thinking about starting a campaign and suing local. School for discrimination

Mrsdavidcaruso - where I live we've got both. Community school with tiny catchment and astronomical house prices, four church schools with restrictive admissions. The whole admissions system is badly flawed. But because one bit is bad (ie good community schools impossible to get into for the average kid) doesn't make the other fucked up bit ok.