To be pretty uncomfortable with home circumcision

[EastofEast]

We get on very well with our neighbours and are pretty close but I was a bit shocked today, one of those moments where you find you really have opposing views on something quite fundamental.

Neighbour has a (gorgeous) two week old boy. She knocked on the door earlier to return my car keys (went to get a new battery for hers in my car) and I mentioned her new ds was unsettled for the first time ever; joking maybe he wasn't the perfect baby after all. My baby is demanding much more vocal about her needs. She said it was because he was circumcised today. I must have looked a little put off, I don't agree with it at all, as she then said 'oh he's doing really well. We were lucky the doctor came to house to do this one, all the others had to go to a clinic'. I was stunned, I'm amazed you're allowed to do such a thing at home in such an unregulated way. Frankly I wouldn't allow any deliberate harm to come to a child that wasn't medically necessary, but considering some people do do it I thought the rules would be tighter. We're both from (different) backgrounds which circumcise, although I refused to change my son, and I knew she'd do it after a related chat about whether fgm was that bad over a coffee one day but it's still upset me a bit the way it's done. The poor little thing is grumpy with loads of adults around to celebrate the event passing him round and round at 8.30pm.

I know the circumcision vs no circumcision has been done already, and not everyone shares my strong views, but at home? Should this be ok? I can't think of other similar procedures happening in a similar environment.

Righto Sam I'll be sure to tell them that they're not proper Muslims, and they should just stop pretending because it's not fooling anyone

On an entirely different note, I was reading an article by a medical doctor who was saying that the foreskin secretes antibacterial proteins. That's pretty interesting.

crescentmoon take it up with the person who said that one mustn't criticise circumcision because the Jews wouldn't like it. Is there a comic book for people like that?

I'm an atheist and therefore don't see any difference between Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. Those are internal differences relevant only to other religious people who take such things seriously. You can all hate each other as much as you like. But my objection is purely that it's child abuse.

FM - I'm not saying that at all. There may be loads of practising Muslims who don't have their boys circumcised. If that's what your nephew's family are doing, that's their choice. Similarly, there may be loads of practising Jews who keep the sabbath and keep kosher but haven't bothered with a brit - but I've never come across any.

Crescentmoon - my thoughts entirely - thank you for that.

I've heard it's the majority of Australians too. Don't know how accurate this is, just anecdotal.

Here's the thing though. If I stand up and say "It's wrong to cut bits off of babies" then typically (probably not always but very often) someone will jump in and say "How dare you talk about Jews that way". And that debate will be reported as "posters targeted the jewish community today over circumcision"

You are less likely to get a Muslim say "how dare you speak of muslims that way" and surely you are just as entitled to take that position and just as entitled to be offended?

Could it be that some Jewish people have cynically decided that claiming anti-semitism gives them an added advantage?

I reminded someone supporting the practice of circumcision by Jews of certain Jewish practices. It can't possibly offend the Jews who presumably see those practices as a beautiful enactment of god's will.

Are you saying that you thought people would think what I described was vile and disgusting? Which people? Muslims? Christians?

"There may be loads of practising Muslims who don't have their boys circumcised."

Not really.

How many Muslim families do you know?

crescentmoon I don't think anyone against circumcision on this thread really gives a damn about who is doing it.

Whether they're Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim or completely Atheist...the fact is loads of people on this thread believe it's wrong.

Therefore Bonsoir's post was ridiculous imo.

"the foreskin secretes antibacterial proteins."

That would be worrying if true, considering that vaginal flora is basically "good bacteria" and anything that kills them off would lead to yeast infection. As you can quickly test for yourself by washing your lady parts with soap for a week or two.

I think it is very misguided to say that opposition to circumcision makes someone anti-Semitic. If anything, I associate circumcision with the US as I believe it's quite common practice there in non-Jewish/Muslim communities. I hate the idea of circumcision but that doesn't mean I hate Americans or Jewish people or Muslim people. It May well have been a tool used by some anti-Semitic people in order to further their agenda but that doesn't make an abhorrence of the procedure racist in itself.

I would like to offer a different perspective. We are Jewish and our DS is circumcised. Done by a mohel who was also a GP, at home, with other people around. It was painful, bloody and barbaric, and we felt green and doubted ourselves for what we had done.

But we're Jews. Just two generations back - great-aunts and great-uncles - members of our families endured truly awful torture and deaths because they were Jews. And the same is true for generations back and back and back, who have repeatedly been subject to the most terrible brutality in pogroms etc.

So we hold dear to our religious practice, and hope that the pain of a brit is the very worst pain our DS will suffer as a result of his religion. And we hope that our values and faith, born in stone age desert blood rituals, and so full of flaws, but also full of the most amazing insights and joy, will be transmitted forward to future generations.

Maybe those future generations will work out a way to retain the best and slough off the worst, without reducing Judaism to a mere collection of good intentions and well-meaning statements. And maybe the brit will be part of what goes. In the meantime, many Jewish parents will continue to circumcise: some blithely, some with angst, never lightly, and never satisfying our secular critics.

So we hold dear to our religious practice, and hope that the pain of a brit is the very worst pain our DS will suffer as a result of his religion.

But you and your DH inflicted that pain on him and he didn't choose his religion - you and your DH did.

So you could just as well hope that it's the last time you'll ever inflict pain on to him for any reason.

To be as violently anti-circumcision as some posters on this thread is to be anti-Semitic. bullshit .That's like saying to be against fgm is to hate Somalians.

Posted too soon...

Therefore if you feel that way, perhaps it would have been best if it were your generation who work out a way to retain the best, and slough off the worst, without reducing Judaism to a mere collection of good intentions and well-meaning statements.

Because I cant' describe how uncomfortable I felt when I read this...

It was painful, bloody and barbaric, and we felt green and doubted ourselves for what we had done.

Agree Worra. There have been other people on this thread from cultures who practice circumcision. They have chosen not to circumcise their children. It is a choice, not a necessity, or inevitable. I would have thought that your child's wellbeing would be paramount.

To be as violently anti-circumcision as some posters on this thread is to be anti-Semitic.

don't be so bloody stupid. I'm anti-choppingbitsoffsomeonesgenetalia.

I find it very worrying that people are ignoring actual victims of this who have stated how harmed they are by it.

Quote from Cote - "How many Muslim families do you know?"

Quite a few, and they all had their kids circumcised. You'll see that I said the same about Jews. Fox Mulder says that her nephew's family seem quite religious Muslims, and as I don't know her or them, I can only accept what she says at face value. If true, it puts them in a vanishing minority, though....

crescentmoon let me get this straight. You are saying that for someone to say they disapprove of circumcision they are automatically referring to an old story about jewish people stealing babies? Presumably this mechanism kicks in even if they have never heard of this old story and are speaking to a hindu or muslim.

Is that really what you are claiming?