To be pretty uncomfortable with home circumcision

[EastofEast]

We get on very well with our neighbours and are pretty close but I was a bit shocked today, one of those moments where you find you really have opposing views on something quite fundamental.

Neighbour has a (gorgeous) two week old boy. She knocked on the door earlier to return my car keys (went to get a new battery for hers in my car) and I mentioned her new ds was unsettled for the first time ever; joking maybe he wasn't the perfect baby after all. My baby is demanding much more vocal about her needs. She said it was because he was circumcised today. I must have looked a little put off, I don't agree with it at all, as she then said 'oh he's doing really well. We were lucky the doctor came to house to do this one, all the others had to go to a clinic'. I was stunned, I'm amazed you're allowed to do such a thing at home in such an unregulated way. Frankly I wouldn't allow any deliberate harm to come to a child that wasn't medically necessary, but considering some people do do it I thought the rules would be tighter. We're both from (different) backgrounds which circumcise, although I refused to change my son, and I knew she'd do it after a related chat about whether fgm was that bad over a coffee one day but it's still upset me a bit the way it's done. The poor little thing is grumpy with loads of adults around to celebrate the event passing him round and round at 8.30pm.

I know the circumcision vs no circumcision has been done already, and not everyone shares my strong views, but at home? Should this be ok? I can't think of other similar procedures happening in a similar environment.

Yeah well, ridiculous is something you can point the finger at and laugh. Presumably because it is so wrong.

Do share where you feel my posts were ridiculous so we can all join in your fun.

"I think the WHO piece is a bit of a red herring"

It's not. It is correct, factual information which is relevant to the discussion.

Some here have claimed that there are no benefits from circumcision to the boy being circumcised. They are wrong. There are lifelong benefits, which WHO have time and again referenced.

"it would be illegal to force circumcision on to an adult male, but when he's a baby in the care of his parents it happens to be ok"

Same with any procedure or even vaccines. Parents make these decisions for their children while they are minors.

What is it you have trouble understanding?

I don't suppose you can miss what you never had. Or remember having had, anyway. But you don't see grown men queuing up to get it done. Even though they know about the HIV risks and can weigh it up for themselves.

Yes, there were two links earlier to online proof that some men were complaining, did you miss them?

It's not to "make parents happy". This has been said several times now.

Of course it's to make the parents happy.

Whether it's done because the parents have chosen a particular religion for that child, or whether it's done because it's cultural/traditional within that family.

It's what the parents are choosing because it makes them happy. Unless you are suggesting the parents are being forced in some way to put their babies through this procedure?

"Have men who were circumcised as babies complained about missing that part of their body or are you just projecting?"

^ This.

"Im a strong believer in patriarchal societies commitment to benefiting men. If this caused serious problems for men there is no way it would have gone on for thousands of years."

^ And this.

Again Cote, (and again and again) I'm entitled to my opinion. Abstinence, use of condoms, all sorts of strategies reduce HIV risk - as WHO acknowledge in the article. Circumcision in itself isn't some magic HIV-preventing wand.

And the reason HIV isn't as common as the vaccinable diseases is, er, because we vaccinate!

They find it embarrassing because their religion tells them they should be embarrassed. If religious leaders stopped perpetuating this crap it wouldn't happen.

Cote

you persist in comparing a nanosecond of pain following an injection, that has extensive benefits in protecting the child against major disease and harm, with a purely cosmetic procedure carried out without anaesthetic or consent and causing considerable pain to a child.

the two arnt in the least comparable as I am sure deep down you know.

as you like quoting stats are there any stats for adult males queuing up for this procedure without anaesthetic?

just because all the males in a family have been mutilated doesn't make it right does it?

But Cote everyone could see my teeth! I didn't smile in photos for years because I hated them so much. I don't see that being a problem for someone's penis - you're only going to show that to someone you trust and are comfortable with and I don't see worries about an uncircumcised penis spoiling your holiday photos in quite the same way!

peaceful optimist,

the thought of you standing over your tiny baby and cutting skin off his penis makes me feel quite sick.

HomeHelpMeGawd You and I both know that if we took a knife and cut a bit of flesh off it would hurt like hell. Those condoning circumcision sometimes say that babies don't feel pain like adults so it doesn't really hurt.

Now since our starting position is that it would hurt US a lot I'd expect anyone who claimed it hurt babies less to come up with evidence. Otherwise what basis do they have for saying it.

And I will say it one more time. The important part of "hurting people for your benefit not theirs" is that it's for your benefit not theirs.

I see you object to the word atrocity.

Ok you wake up tomorrow morning tied to the bed and I have a pair of scissors. I tell you I'm going to cut off bits of flesh, but not enough to kill you. Do you feel my moral position is a good one or a bad one? How bad?

Do you think I might be justified if I had a really good reason such as religion or culture?

Dont worry yourself thebody. The GP did it not me. He was also anesthetized. He is a healthy, happy boy. I dont regret it.

crescentmoon If circumstances changed and circumcision left people open to some new virus would you advise against circumcision or would the fact that god wants it done override that?

Back, absolutely agree.

also the WHO research states that ALL circumcisions should only be carried out by a trained doctor in a sterile environment. so not mum with a scissors or a religious guru in the child's home..with pain relief.

if you accept research then you need to accept it all bit the bits that suit you.

Crescentmoon - just wanted to say hi.

You (and Cote, and Sam and many others) are doing great here. I am trying not to get sucked in, but you have my silent support :).

Thebody, do you somehow think there are mums out there with rusty scissors slowly circumcising their newborns on their kitchen table between a full ashtray and a cold bucket of fried chicken? Because if that's your mental image of it, no wonder you are against it.

'I circumcised my son when he was a baby'!!

that's what you posted Peaceful at 15.18..

'he cries more when he has his teeth brushed'

now how did he cry as you now say he was under anaesthetic???

confused by your conflicting statements.