to think when Brits complain about immigrants not integrating

[redpipe]

or learning English, it's a bit of a pot, kettle, black scenario.

I just heard someone moaning about immigrants not integrating or learning English when I happen to know their parents actually live in Majorca in an ex pat community and don't speak Spanish.

I think the there are loads of Brits living abroad in countries that don't speak English who don't integrate, learn the language or mix much with locals.

AIBU to think that we are probably one of the worst nations for integrating when we emigrate and learning languages but the first to moan about people not integrating in the UK.

Britain is such a wide church when it comes to culture/nationalities etc. 'Brit' is shorthand and not usually used in a nice way!

thanksamillion and ginslinger you have absolutely nailed it.

I live overseas and had every intention of learning the language fluently. However I also work a 12 hour day in an Rnglish speaking global office and have to travel all over Europe for many weeks of the year. My DC is fluent as he is in bi-lingual school and my husband speaks the language from a previous life. But it is hard, really hard.

Also it was our decision to take this adventure and not my DC's so it's important that he keeps up all his original language skills and cultural elements.

I know a lot more than I probably did when I came, however people judge you instantaneously. So when we had to rush my DC to hospital in the first few weeks of being here we weren't really in a great state of mind to get out our text books and practice fluency of medical conditions and thank god the doctor had spent some time in the UK. But yes we got filthly looks and mumblings of Auslander in the waiting room so hopefully that makes everyone feel better.

You really have to walk a mile in another man's shoes before you can comment objectively. I certainly look at "immigrants" (and isn't it strange how folks who move to the UK are immigrants but British people are ex-pats) in the UK in a very sympathetic and understanding light. But then I always did.

PacificDogwood: I feel your pain re the bread - in my case it's finding decent tea

WallyBanter - it is much easier to integrate when you are married into the new culture because I had a ready made family and friends and so I got to practise my German all the time and I had people to explain the different cultural things to me. It's much less easy to emigrate as a 'family' because your default position is to speak your own language at home, you will find it difficult to make friends with people until you speak their language and you won't learn their language until you make friends to speak it with. And so it goes on.
People who complain about the failure of 'immigrants' to learn english really burns my toast because it's damned difficult if you only have classes to learn in. You only learn the basics but not the real stuff.

When we lived in the east end there were plenty of second generation women who spoke very little english. They worked in the family shops of Brick Lane and surrounds and just rubbed along ok. I found that quite sad really and quite suprising.

My dad did his national service in italy. He came back speaking italian and with a love of italian food, art, wine and culture. He didn't need to learn italian but decided that since he was there, he'd integrate and get the mosyt out of his posting. He said 'when you need to, to just do' with reference to learning a language - where he was few spoke english.

I totally agree and we have wonderful, wonderful neighbours who really want us to get involved culturally in the things that happen in the village - carnivals, fireworks etc and are super patient with my language skills. I wonder if neighborhoods in the UK extend the same hand?

On the other side I have made Christmas pudding vodka for my neighbours in the past (followed by Christmas pudding as they didn't know what it was either) mince pies and scones. As soon as parents come for a pick up after a play date they ask for a proper British cup of tea.

My husbands skills have helped enormously and we are forever "ruined" as we won't fit anywhere - if we move to the UK the bread, brezels, wurst and festivities will be really sadly missed.

BlueberryQ and Spirulina

Brit is not offensive. It is also nothing similar to using the word Paki.

We have the BRIT awards, even the Classic BRITS at the royal albert hall. We even have a school called The BRIT school fostering musical talent such as Adele et al.

It is not in the least bit comparable in any way.

I'm not sure the real issue is integration. The Chinese community are often living side by side without much integration (to the point of having an area known as China Town as a tourist attraction. Can you imagine the cries of racist if there was a area called Pakistan Park or something?

I think it depends on both the host country and the immigrants. Neighbouring countries are often the worse to integrate into.

Burberry - why do you see Brit as being offensive?

I don't consider myself British first and foremost but I still am British.

Brit is not offensive. It is also nothing similar to using the word Paki.

It depends on what country you're in. Where we live we have 'Brit Superstore', 'Paki Internet' and 'Chino Bazaars' That's what the shops have on the signs, none are considered offensive. We do live in a very multicultural and free and easy going non racist city (not in England).

I met a Pakistani guy the other day and when we were talking I asked him what he did and he told me he owned and ran a 'Paki locutorio' (an internet/phone/photocopy shop)

personally i find 'Brit' offensive because I have heard it used offensively so many times, but i guess that is just my personal experience and where I have spent time in my life.

Imafrequentnamechanger - if you really think that you are living in a a very multicultural and free and easy going non racist city (not in England I suggest you ask the Ecuadoreans and Morroccans if they agree with you.

I don't disagree with you OP, but, there's another side to the story...

I'm sure there are plenty of immigrants who would love nothing more than to integrate, but who get frozen out at the school gate, coolly ignored, DC not invited on play dates, not included in the works drinks, etc, etc, yada, yada.

Brits expect people to just get on and integrate, and yet do absolutely nothing to foster that integration...

that is soooo true Grandstandingbluetit - see the mum in the headscarf sitting on her own at school pick up time every day, while the 'alpha mums' sweep past her to exchange their gossip? she is the one who gets slagged off for not 'integrating'.

Expats are different from immigrants. Often moving in and out of countries for a few years. They are not generally putting down roots for good so it's not surprising they often mix with other expats (often different nationalities, not just Brits) or become fluent in the language, also many other cou tries would never really accept them anyway - they would always be 'other'.

We are considering moving to Spain. If we go I will make an attempt to speak the language, have Spanish friends etc but the kids will go to an internatinal school and we probably will mix with other expats as it can be very hard to integrate and we probably won't be there for ever.

BurberryQ Why? I don't live in Morocco or Ecuador and don't know any here so not sure why I should seek out some to ask them.

no you live in Spain obviously ........just they might not agree with your view of your lovely non racist city that is all. never mind.

I've met British people on the Costa Del Sol who told me that their main reason for moving to Spain was to get away from all the bloody foreigners (seriously)

The segregation in areas like the Costa Del Sol is absolutely shocking and is down to British people not wanting to speak Spanish or to live in Spanish society at all, they just want a British life in the sun. It makes me ashamed to be British

We've lived here for 4.5 years and both speak fluent Spanish and are well integrated. The DC go to an international school and also speak and learn in Spanish, 60% of the children in their school are Spanish with the other 40% being from all different nationalities. DH works in a Spanish company. Here I'm friends with lots of people from all over the world and many Spanish people, and they (the Spanish included) say it's one of the things they love about the city so I don't think I'm wrong. Of course there will always be a few but none I've come across, except the tourists who have a moan loudly about 'The fucking Spanish, why can't they speak English' when they are in shops and bars.

When we have visited England I find the level of casual racism shocking and sad. It's one of the many reasons why we will never move back there.

ImAFrequentNameChanger

If you live in a Spanish city then that is a very different environment to the British expat ghettos where sometimes you can struggle to hear a word of Spanish spoken

I live in Asturias and I'm the only British person I know. When I lived in the South I didnt know any British people who spoke enough Spanish to have even have a conversation. Many of their kids even dropped out of school because they couldnt understand the teachers. It was absolutely shocking

Nope the people I meet at DS school who are British, or from the US describe themselves as Ex-pats even though it's a permanent move. My colleague describes herself as an Ex-pat even though she was born in Malaysia, grew up there for 25 years and her parents own an apartment there for over 30 years.

Our lifestyles aren't transient in the same respect as Saudi workers and yet there are Ex-pat expos, clubs etc.

As far as I am aware we don't know the status of every single person who had moved to the UK (and may have every intention of having an adventure, learning a language and going home) but from what I can see they are generally classed as immigrants.

A bit unreasonable. Ex pats in Spain are basically on a very long holiday till they die and iimmigrants to the uk are often economic migrants who need to integrate on a different level. Some gobshite Brit asking for "two beers por favor" is different than going into a McDonald's and not being understood by the non English speaking staff.

No, I was just expressing examples of life day to day I see as an immigrant myself. I see people from the UK/US working in the country I live in, applying for residency and doing nothing to integrate into the community or learn the language because, well "most people speak English these days, don't they..?"

We even received a letter last week asking if all children wanted to take a Thanskgiving holiday due to a large number of requests from US parents. This is not an American school, or a British school!

And I'm assuming those people working at the counter in McDonalds that you quote would have had to pass an interview of some sort? And it wouldn't be in Polish, or Bulgarian or whatever? You cannot know the back story to every non UK person who comes to the UK, surely? When they arrived and how long they have been learning English?

What better way to learn than by customer interface? All it takes is a little patience from both sides. At least they are putting themselves into the position of trying to learn by working in an English environment. I wish I had the guts to be frank. I'm still struggling with apps and tutorials when I can.

Where Im from there are many British living there and no, they dont learn the language or mix with the locals really, many tend to live on gated estates..the tourist ones stay in their all inclusive & I guess, never come out. Its as if they want British lifestyle in the sun. Thats what I see and know so yes I believe just as much as some immigrants dont integrate into UK life, there are British who also dont assimilate when they live & work abroad. So Im always when I hear convo about immigrants not being part of UK life.

The MCDonads/KFC down our way all seem to be run by either Polish or Asian workers. I wouldn't be surprised if any interviews weren't in English. But yes, at least this kind of job will help them learn English, if they are on the tills and not just working behind the scenes.

I was an expat for a few years and it is a two way street often. We had many expat friends, many Brits and many expats from elsewhere. Also had some local friends but as the wife looking after the kids and the kids going to international schools - it is hard to integrate with a local population who often don't really have the time or inclination to make transient friends outside their own family group and friends.

I don't think its hypocritical on their part but I have to agree that people emigrating and not learning the local language makes my blood boil.

That being said, when I moved to France I really stuggled to integrate with the local language and humour even though I didn't spend any time with English speakers, although I do think a large reason for that was because French people were so disparaging of my attempts to speak French and accused me of speaking like a Parisian rather than a local etc making me feel very self conscious and giving me HUGE culture shock.

Conversely when I lived in Germany and Spain I got on really well and made friends, and didn't feel self conscious at all but the point is some people do struggle and even in Germany I enjoyed meeting up with English friends, and spending too much money on imported English foods to replicate home so I do understand the temptation for immigrants not to integrate...