to think when Brits complain about immigrants not integrating

[redpipe]

or learning English, it's a bit of a pot, kettle, black scenario.

I just heard someone moaning about immigrants not integrating or learning English when I happen to know their parents actually live in Majorca in an ex pat community and don't speak Spanish.

I think the there are loads of Brits living abroad in countries that don't speak English who don't integrate, learn the language or mix much with locals.

AIBU to think that we are probably one of the worst nations for integrating when we emigrate and learning languages but the first to moan about people not integrating in the UK.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I lived in Italy and knew British people who didn't learn Italian. We used to roll our eyes and go on about how ignorant they were. I don't do the same about immigrants to the UK. I am a hypocrite, just the other way round

I am also an immigrant and have heard British people, here in Canada, say that they came here because of all the immigrants in the UK. Ironic? Yes, it is. I suppose they mean brown immigrants, not themselves.

[redpipe]

MrsTerryPratchett

[sashh]

But that's not them personally is it? I would find it a bit rich if someone who lived in aforementioned expat community was banging on about it

I picked up a friend and her son from the airport, he was wittering on about immigrants, not learning the language etc etc. I asked him where he had got these ideas from

"My gran says..................."

That would be his gran who lives in Spain, doesn't speak Spanish, but does read certain British newspapers.

I now that is only one person, I know it is Spain. It is though, a British person who does not recognise herself as an immigrant.

[ILoveAFullFridge]

"People are very good at not noticing the things which don't fit in with their prejudices, though."

Quite. And as the child of immigrants, myself, whose mother-tongue is not English, I am astonished at the number of people who take offence when I slip into my mother tongue to talk to my mother.

Of course immigrants should learn the local language and customs, but they should not be expected to totally give up their own language and customs.

[Mia4]

I get what you mean OP and if someone does moan about the lack of integrating in this country but believes it's okay to live abroad and not integrate then they are hypocritical indeed (Like Sashh's friend's gran). But I think you'll find there's plenty of people in other countries that find that brits who are not integrating (or trying to) and expecting people to cater to them just as annoying as the brits who get annoyed by the lack of integration here.

Basically, i think most people get annoyed by a lack of integration in terms of language- a lack of even trying especially . DP hopes to go to France at some point to live and we're already learning french in preparation for that day (and because knowing another language is almost always useful).

DPs uncles live in france, one went at the age of 19 and one went a few onths back. The one who went as a teen is teaching his brother how to speak french and get used to everything, in the towns where they live very few people speak english and those that do will wait to see if brits (and others, germans, american etc) try to communicate in french before using french and english to communicate. If there's no attempt by the brits to use french then those who can also speak english pretend they can't and refuse to help them. They, like the brits you mention, are very against people not-integrating or even trying to.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Mia I saw this in Paris. DH and I went to a restaurant and I started in French. The waiter took pity on DH (with his horrible French) and spoke to us in English. Two Americans came and started in English. He refused to speak English to them. A little awkward as the waiter seated us next to each other so he spoke English to us and French to them, in full hearing of each other.

[misspontypine]

I feel sad that all the blame is put on the immigrants, I wonder how easy it is to learn English, are there free courses?

I am British but live abroad. I have learnt the language but it has been a long journey and I have a lot more to learn. I go to free language classes ( ironically you can also learn English for free) the people in the class are a real mix, most of them havn't choosen to leave their home country, it has been the only option. They have left behind their homes, friends and everything familiar to keep themselves and their children safe. Many people in tge class have never been in a formal classroom, many struggle to read and write their home language.

I have been told about horrible things that have happened to my class mates since they have been living in this supposedly very equal country. I have not directly experienced the same things because I have white skin and I have spent a long time practising my accent so I am not obviously an immigrant.

I don't blame people for not wanting to fit in,

[Strumpetron]

It's really really important that people still feel they can embrace their cultures and I'd be saddened if people thought they couldn't do this due to having to fit in.

BUT learning the language of where you're wanting to live and work is a must. There's no two ways about it. How do you expect to get anywhere without that? And abiding by our laws.

[Mia4]

MrsTerryPratchett very awkward indeed! Did they say anything? I think this happens a lot, probably accross the board in all different countries. My uncle's neighbours are french and can't stand 'brashy people' who walk in and start ordering around in english. Apparently they were wary when he first moved in since their last american neighbours didn't care to learn or integrate and assumed he would be the same but since they've met his bilingual brother and seen how hard he's trying they've pretty much hit it off.

Right about now it would be wine, cheese and pate o'clock for them!

[BackOnlyBriefly]

If I ever move to another country I'm going to have a horrible time trying to learn the language. This is the thing I am worst at and it would take me forever. I will become known as 'that Brit who still can't pronounce hello properly' But I would be trying. I wouldn't say "This is my culture. I don't have to learn your language".

Not every immigrant does that - people vary, but enough do to cause resentment.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Mia no one said anything. I bet they did back at their hotel, though.

[StanleyLambchop]

I have lived abroad in two different countries, and both times I learnt the language, to varying degrees of success.( One language I found way harder than the other- but people were way , way more appreciative when I did speak it, as they realised it was hard to learn as a foreign language) One thing I did find is that when people realise you are English speaking, they tend to jump in and want to use you to practise their English- so you are trying your best to speak and learn and they just switch to English mid conversation! It is also annoying if you are trying to think of the right word and then mid sentence someone jumps in and says it in English- yes, I know it in English, I want to learn it in your language!!! So, sometimes it is harder to learn a language when your own is so universally spoken and understood, I think that needs to be taken into account.

[Bodicea]

I was born in saudi while my father worked there, and you can't compare an expat in saudi to immigrants in Britain. Lived there for 7 years. There are no opportunities to integrate - they dont want you to. I was not given citizenship, not even dual citizenship. I wouldn't expect it though. It isn't my country.
They have it right though. You help bring in skills to their economy and in return you get to make money for a short while and when your skills are not needed, they expect you to go home and not live off them. Its a fair deal, everyone wins. The difference is they pick and choose who gets to come in - getting only those with skills that are needed.

[SeaSickSal]

Spanish people do moan about the English. Particularly back in the boom years they were resented for increasing property prices and pricing young Spanish people out.

The French can be extremely unfriendly to British expats, particularly if their French is not up to scratch.

In Dubai and similar 'not conforming to their culture' can land you a jail sentence.

It's not something exclusive to the English, people do like people who move to the country to respect their culture, learn the language and to mix with people who are 'natives' for want of a better word.

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with that, it's a matter of wanting to communicate with your neighbour and have amicable human links and relations with the people around you. I think that applies just as much to Brits in Majorca as it does to Pakistani's on a Burnley estate.

[SnookyPooky]

I live in Cyprus, not in an ex pat enclave but in a village outside Limassol. All my neighbours are Cypriot and DH and I both work for Cypriot companies. We go to local tavernas and shops, most of our friends are not English and I believe we have integrated well.
We both speak some Greek, me a little more than DH and we have made massive changes to our lifestyle and attitudes since coming here. We fit with the country and the culture we live in, we don't expect the opposite.

[ImAFrequentNameChanger]

YANBU I live abroad and regularly meet Brits who have been here years and not bothered learning.

[MorrisZapp]

My mum is a 'reverse hypocrite'. She is aghast if she overhears British people speaking in Loud Slow English on holiday, and tuts to show the locals that she's not one of those awful people.

But she thinks that anybody who has settled in the UK and has a different skin colour to herself has a 'culture' that should be 'celebrated', and should absolutely not have to integrate.

Liberals are funny :)

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, I have been spoken to in Slow Loud English . Which does not stop when I reply in perfectly good English...

I also grew up near a large American Army base, lots of single US soldiers about, some single, some families. I really appreciated it when any one of them addressed me in English, but asked 'Do you speak English?' first, rather than just assuming I must do as if their language is the Only Valid One. Yes, they were a occupying force and lived v much in army barracks and generally mixed v little with the local population (other than if they were looking for company...) and I would not expect the average soldier on a short stretch abroad to be fluent. However, the assumption that everybody else just knew English used to really rile me. I used to pretend I did not understand them... [childrish]

[Pixel]

But what about the children in Spanish schools not integrating as well as other European nationals?

A friend of mine (well my then-boyfriend's sister actually) emigrated to Spain with her family because of her dh's job. The children went to a spanish school and had to learn the language. No one spoke english to them at all. The six year old was fluent within six months but the teenage daughter found it more difficult as she was self-conscious and afraid of making mistakes in front of her classmates. She still had to do it though, it just took her longer.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

OP - immigrants in Spain not speaking Spanish is erm...Spain's issue.

Immigrants living in the UK and not speaking English is the UK's problem.

I don't see either as being acceptable. If one moves to a country then one should learn the language.

[Spirulina]

I think it's interesting how the term 'Brit' is used so often, yet if we were, say, from Pakistan for example, it wouldn't be acceptable to shorten that country's name in the same way.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Spirulina

It's not interesting - it's just Paki has been used in a derogatory manner for many years against anybody who happens to have brown skin. Brit has not.

It's fairly simple.

[PacificDogwood]

Surely a 'Brit' can describe themselves thus?

It's not the shortening that's offensive, it's the sentiment behind it, surely.

[BrokenSunglasses]

I expect it has been used in an offensive and racist way, it's just that we don't hear it.