to think this a major 'breakthrough' in the Ben Needham case?

[AliaTheEvilLeaper]

A 4 year old girl living in a Roma Camp has been found not related to the camp and parents.
Ben Needham's family apparently had a line of enquiry years back about being linked back to Larissa,
Which is where the area this girl was found.
If there's so many children out there with a chance of maybe being Ben or other stolen, shouldn't we be checking this out?
It's a possibility and a plausible one at that.
Girl found with no DNA matching to parents
www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.home&id=1553
Lots of other children out there in those camps.No idea whether they're biologically related or not.
Is it not worth the enquiry? For the peace of mind?
It hasn't been investigated. It should be. Just to make SURE.
Especially as this little girl has been discovered in the exact same place as Ben was purpoted to have been.

Aunt I work in the criminal justice system. No-one can force you to make your child give a statement, and police (in the UK anyway) try to avoid interviewing child witnesses unless absolutely necessary. Also, it's an ABE interview rather than a statement, and certainly they wouldn't interview repeatedly unless directed by the CPS. HTH.

Also, the child wouldn't be TOLD "Hey, guess what, someone tried to kidnap you!" That would be leading, apart from anything else. She'd just be asked to describe what (if anything) she'd seen on that day. As I said though, given that you've said she was oblivious to it, I don't imagine the police would have seen a need to obtain an account from her.

It's also possible Maria's bio parents sold their baby to the gang, or someone enthusiastically gave baby over because they didn't want any baby to raise themselves (this is what the Roma parents are claiming, now).

The fact the child was sent out begging is awful, nonetheless. Is begging something that some Roma claim as part of their cultural heritage?

This time last week it would have been far fetched this girl turning up at all, so it's certainly a possibility that needs ruling out. Especially as there have been reports of Ben in the area.

Anyway, it would be nicer to think of than the alternatives. I suspect there is a high probability her parent/s may have sold her."

aunt is it accepted knowledge that roma gangs want blonde hair children and target resorts?

when you say resort do you mean, set up likes the mark warner madeline mcann thing?

There have been numerous reports from Greece on the effects of the financial crisis on families there. One I saw on the BBC news was about the increasing numbers of parents putting their children in charity-run orphanages because they couldn't afford to feed and look after them. This little girl may well have been given away by her parents to someone who offered to care for her.

Yes wow but why then didnt the couple just say that, they must have been shifty in their manner when asked where this girl has come from, and they have other children there as well.

Where is the crime though- a Roma group surrounded a small child and then dispersed when the parent shouted at them, this type of steaming is really typical of the way these groups operate- they may have been intending to knock the child over, the parents to bend over- pick their pockets. Feigning their own injuries/bashing into people so they don't realise they are being stolen from. Given that they didn't do anything concrete, and given the mum couldn't id them, what would be achieved by ringing up five years later.

And- lots of blonde-haired children from nice western families are not the ones usually taken because they are way too identifiable and cause a manhunt to descent on these communities- even when Maddie was first taken, it shocked the entire nation and was on TV constantly. The most at risk are Roma children or other poor (non-white European looking) groups- if you read the Telegraph link on this thread, nearly 200 children were trafficked for begging and they were all stolen from the poorest neighbourhoods, knowing that threatening the parents would scare them and that they would have no money for police/lawyers/robust judicial system to help them (bribery extremely common). Even in this case- we are all focusing on this one blonde adorable little girl, but there were numerous other more Roma looking children also found which are very unlikely to be theirs genetically but no-one is worried about them finding their parents.

I think the spectre of a blonde white child being snatched by gypsies is very scary and feeds into older stereotypes really- I'm not saying it never ever happens, but it is extremely rare, whereas gypsy/Roma children are more likely themselves to be traded/sold without anyone noticing or caring:(

It doesn't seem to make sense to steal a child who looks so different from yourself, it stands out a mile.

I wouldn't, I would steal children who look more like me and my community.

Waaaay too much hearsay and conjecture.

We don't even know if the child in question was indeed snatched.

Like everyone else, I dearly wish every abducted child would be found and returned to their families but we just don't know anything near the truth about this situation yet.

We don't even know if the child in question was indeed snatched.

No, we don't, that's true, If she does indeed turn out to not be legitimately taken, then it needs looking into deeper.

Some of you wanted some figures.

In the UK (population: 61 MIO) it is estimated that 140 000 cases of missing children are reported annually (383/day). from here

and

An estimated one million children go missing every year within the European Union from here

These includes runaways and parental abductions i think.

The people she was with have actually been charged with abduction so it seems there is reasonable evidence a crime has been committed.

Mumsyblouse that's what I thought when I read AuntMargaret's post too. That they would make a feint they were stealing the child to distract when actually they were after valuables.

Mumsy all good points. I think I'm more irritated about the fact that Aunt keeps coming back with things that just aren't true in order to justify her decision.

I'm thinking in particular about her claim that her DD would have had to give a statement, over and over again, in a way that caused her some degree of psychological harm. That's actually quite irresponsible, as it could give people on here a very inaccurate view of how child victims/witnesses are treated by police, and make them think twice about reporting suspected abuse themselves. The reality is that child witnesses are treated with painstaking care, and nobody should EVER hold back from reporting a suspicious incident because they're afraid the evidence gathering process might harm the child more.

I agree that reporting now is unlikely to make a difference, and I'd probably have left it at that if Aunt had just said "You know, you're right. I should have reported it but I just didn't because (x,y,z)."

Seasick sorry my remark about no crime being committed was about Aunt's case and whether reporting 5 years later was useful- I pointed out no actual crime had been committed and so reporting threatening but not criminal behaviour, even if suspicious is not probably going to be of interest to the local police who have to cope with a lot of actual crime by Roma pickpocket gangs etc.

In the case the OP outlines, clearly there is a crime, as they have fraudulent documents, children who are not theirs but cannot account for them and claim child benefit for children the woman cannot possibly have had- the mystery is where the extra children have come from- and why all the attention is on the blonde little girl when there are others (dark-haired and presumably Roma looking) who are also not with their original parents.

I agree what was the crime....people came forward then went back...on a street.

Jesus, everyone knows that child witnesses are put through the ringer, I cant think of anything right now, but I know I have heard people saying something needs to be done about it.

Mumsy, do you not think its because of Ben Needham and Madaline Mcann, that the worlds media has gone crazy on it.

Because they have never noticed or caught Roma with blonde children before. Therefore opening up possibilities?

Its probably a given that Roma children are trafficked as are poor Romanian children....but NOT that blonde haired children are. Thats new. And therefore, News.

pastel well, no, they don't. What are you talking about?

OK, look, HERE. Read that, then come back when you know what you're talking about. Or when you can quote some source that's a bit more authoritative than "everyone knows". FFS.

ukhumanrightsblog.com/2010/05/28/child-rape-case-sparks-new-debate-on-child-witnesses-in-criminal-courts/

Jesus, don't accuse me of lying because my experience is different from yours. I know of numerous examples where parents have been persuaded to let their child give a statement in a criminal investigation. IME, at this stage, the police and social workers will make all sorts of promises to the parents so that they can get the evidence. Parents are frequently told that the child will never need to give another statement and it just isn't true. The police and prosecutors frequently forget that they are only part of the justice system, and that once the ball is rolling, other parties have the right to get a statement too. It also depends what part of the UK you are in, you do know different rules apply? I did the best thing at the time for my daughter and I would do it again. If you would have acted differently, that's up to you.

www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/media-centre/press-releases/2013/child-witnesses/courts-unjust-to-child-sex-abuse-witnesses_wdn98817.html?utm_content=buffer1a82f&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

This one is particularity sad.

Research shows that more support is needed for child witnesses

Our research found that that over half of child witnesses experienced symptoms of stress such as sleep and eating problems, depression, panic attacks and self-harm in the lead-up to the trial.* In addition, at least half were unable to understand some of the questions they were asked in court. For children aged under ten, this rose to 90 per cent.

In the last year, ChildLine carried out over a thousand counselling sessions with children concerned about court cases.

One child told ChildLine: "I am feeling so nervous about giving evidence in court. They are making me explain exactly what happened but I’m not sure I can cope with things like that just yet. Sometimes I wish I had never said anything. I feel like I have lost everything now and can’t cope anymore."

Another said: "I have to go to court this week to give evidence and I really don’t want to. I am so alone and depressed. I self harm now. I do it so I can cope with my fears of going to court. It just feels like everything’s my fault and I wish I had never told anyone."

Registered intermediaries do not act on behalf of the witness or prosecution but are neutral officers of the court. Their services have been available to all 43 police and Crown Prosecution areas in England and Wales since 2008, however their numbers have been falling since 2011. There are only 112 registered intermediaries but an estimated 23,000 children give evidence in court each year.***

0/06/2013 - 10:27:56Back to World Home

It is only a matter of time before a child witness commits suicide if nothing is done to address the adversarial culture in courtrooms, the head of a leading British charity has warned.

Writing in a blog for the Huffington Post UK, Victim Support chief executive Javed Khan said his staff have stories of children leaving court in tears after being grilled on harrowing topics including sexual abuse.

Mr Khan, who became head of the charity for victims and witnesses of crime in 2010, said he is haunted by the story of Frances Andrade, who killed herself in January after being cross examined at Manchester Crown Court.

The 48-year-old violin teacher took her life during the trial of choirmaster Michael Brewer, who was later convicted of child sex offences against Mrs Andrade when she was 14 and 15 years old.

“We’ve all heard stories of children – many of them victims of horrific sex crimes – being thrown to the wolves in court and it needs to stop, ” Mr Khan said. “Let’s heed the warning signs before it is too late.”

He went on: “Are we really waiting for a child witness to kill themselves before we accept that the adversarial culture of our courtrooms is wrong?

“If things stay the same I fear it’s only a matter of time before the worst happens. Victim Support experience tells me we’re not far from that happening.”

Mr Khan, a former executive director of the London Serious Youth Violence Board, called for compulsory training for defence barristers on how to handles prosecution witnesses.

Victim Support was set up over 38 years ago and now contacts more than 1.5 million people after a crime to offer support.

Jesus

I think having a set of "guidelines", and the reality of what happens in every day life are vastly different.

It happens in every area of life, as well as the CJS.

I can only be bothered to look up a couple of examples but I do know the way child witness are treated leaves alot to be desired.

Then the law needs a total over haul in the UK.

Having said that people still have to be brave and come forward and try....I dread to think what would happen if people didn't try for justice even though it means them being as Mr Khan from:

Victim support said,

“We’ve all heard stories of children – many of them victims of horrific sex crimes – being thrown to the wolves in court and it needs to stop, Let’s heed the warning signs before it is too late.”

I am aware that there are concerns over the way some child sex abuse victims have been treated in court, and certainly some recent incidents are indefensible. You have to remember, though, that these are the high profile cases where things have gone badly wrong. We tend not to hear about the cases where the child has been treated with care and sensitivity and received the counselling they may not have had access to if it had NEVER BEEN REPORTED because the parents were frightened off by this kind of scaremongering. That's what I'm concerned about. At least give a balanced picture here.

Aunt OK, I'm sorry I offended you. Ordinarily I'm a bit more circumspect in the way I word my posts on here, but on that occasion I was unnecessarily bolshy because I was just thinking - what if someone reads that and it puts them off reporting suspected abuse? We very often see people on here who are wavering over whether to report, and it makes me very uneasy when people try and persuade them that it's in the child's best interests not to. But I accept that in trying to make my point I was a twat to you, and I'm sorry about that. ?

The posts on here have persuaded me never to report a crime my child has been victim to.