To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

[Dolcelatte]

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

starlight

That is point that I am trying to make. grades are not the whole story, but PRP needs some form of structure in place otherwise what is the point of it.

In one of the industries I worked in it was simple.
Output reach per day
Returns per month
downtime of machine (write in lots of stuff about catastrophic failures and Just In Time)

All measurable, all quantifiable.

If you can't set the criteria for success, how can you implement PRP.

'eg a school that half way through the year has a traveller camp influx of children who skew all of the results for the classes they are in .'

In that instance, why on EARTH would you rely on whole class data?

Ignore for a minute the actual data, and the actual recording system and think for a moment about performance as a pure unintepreted value. Given the same set of circumstances, some people would perform better than others. Why should they not be paid more then?

Why should teachers not do extra reading/training/cpd to help them become that better performer for pay recognition?

Why should this not be related to the role they are good at? Why should a teacher have to go for a promotion for extra responsibility to get more money when they could simply become better at what they are already good at and recognised for that?

Why can't HTs and the SLT make decisions and judgements about performance and pay as experts in the teaching profession and all it is about and as people who 'understand' the volatile nature of their client group?

'OUt of interest, which hour in the day do you propose is given up for all this extra assessment and target setting?'

The hour that is saved by good data collection and the subsequent increasing efficiency resulting.

starlight

"Personally I would want measures of engagement and evidence of that too, but the simple figures would show one hour a week in classroom at the beginning of the year and 6 hours a week in the classroom at the end. Blimmin EASY to measure is it not?"

So what happens if that child has a meltdown at the end of the previous lesson or during a lesson change over in the corridor and refuses to come in to my lesson? Its not my fault, there is nothing that I can do, yet it is recorded as not engaged, not in classroom.

There is one essential difference: the workers of firm X are not at the same time responsible for the emotional and educational welfare of their customers: if the customers are dissatisfied they can simply go elsewhere; the salesman doesn't have to worry about what happens to them.

In a school the customers are children who are legally required to be at school but who cannot themselves decide which school to attend- and often their parents don't have much of a choice either, due to catchment restrictions and oversubscription of popular schools. And the teachers are in loco parentis- which is not the responsibility of a banker or a salesman.

If I get rotten customer service from a commercial firm or a bank, this is hardly likely to decide my entire future: I can decide to either take my custom elsewhere or do without the transaction altogether. I won't be fined or thrown into prison for choosing not to buy a car or a foreign holiday at all.

A child who is being hassled by his teacher because he is underperforming because of circumstances beyond his control and hence affecting her chances of a pay rise can't simply answer "very well, I won't bother with your product, then".

Yet the attitude of the school towards this child may decide his whole future.

This whole idea of using market forces depends on a free market. We don't have that in education and we can't have it as long as education remains compulsory.

'So what happens if that child has a meltdown at the end of the previous lesson or during a lesson change over in the corridor and refuses to come in to my lesson? Its not my fault, there is nothing that I can do, yet it is recorded as not engaged, not in classroom.'

Why is it not your fault?

Exactly, Starlight.

BoneyBack, um, I would expect schools to know how to identify and manage bullying behaviour PRP or no PRP .

Talkinpeace, why is this taking an hour every day?

The hour that is saved by good data collection and the subsequent increasing efficiency resulting.

These are kids, not robots Starlight, and we teach hundreds of them.

starlight

Because the child never made it to my classroom. I haven't had a chance to engage the pupil.

And whose fault is it?

i feel sick thinking about all of this, and am dreading the whole thing.

no matter how hard i work, how much extra reading/training i undertake, how well my students (including those with SEN) do, the extracurricular things i am involved with, it isn't going to be good enough.

my school is having budget crises- i can see older colleagues being put on capability through PRP to save money. you can cover almost 2 nqt salaries with one post threshhold teacher's salary.

If the child never made it to your classroom, then whose fault is it? Who had a performance dip?

Noble I am not at all clear what point you are making. Where did I say children were robots?

families

What is bullying behaviour from a teacher?
It is (apparently) a simple question.

Is it making a child work?
Is it giving them detentions for not completing class work/homework?
Is it repeatedly asking them to sort their uniform out?
Is it giving detentions for lack of equipment?
Is it pulling them up on inappropriate language?
Is it stopping them form hitting other pupils?
Is it ringing the parents because you are worried that the child's performance is slipping?
Because I have been called a bully for all of these.

chibi, explain why?

explain why what?

why i feel like i am never good enough?

why a school in budget crisis has an incentive to get rid of more expensive teachers (we already have, 3posts now)?

aren't the answers obvious?

"If the child never made it to your classroom, then whose fault is it? Who had a performance dip?"

Why is it a teachers fault?
Why must a teacher have had a performance dip?

Things happen in-between lessons in corridors. A meltdown could happen because a child doesn't want to leave the classroom.

Why do you want to apportion fault?

Starlight, I'm not sure where you think good data collection can lead to efficiencies that will free up an hour of time every day in order to record how interventions have improved outcomes for each child in your care.

It isn't as simple as intervention -> improved outcome = successful intervention and intervention -> no improved outcome = failure of intervention. There are too many variables.

"If the child never made it to your classroom, then whose fault is it? Who had a performance dip?"

Speaking as a parent of three grown up DDs (well one is 16) and five grown up step children, it isn't anyone's fault if things go awry in the teenage years.

My middle DD was a nightmare (as a result if her Dad's death), her social life affected her final school years, the school she transferred to, helped her to turn it around, but it couldn't be measured, or the previous school blamed.

We all dispared that my youngest DD's school was closed, it had very poor Ofstead reports, but they did a marvelous job to set those up in the Unit for pupils with additional Needs ( my DD was one) to achieve success in senior school.

Likewise they were set in one if the roughest catchments areas of Liverpool, there were arrests of parents and armed fights in the playground, as well as at a few school plays, just to show what the school was up against.

Drug use was the norm.

Children are unpredictable in their nature, families hit lots of problems, which affect everyone, as they are not machines.

I dislike the set up now, we're all pupils are not given a chance to sit GCSE's this proposal will cause even more children to have to be pushed to the sidelines, so not to bring down "performance ratings".

Most of my friends who are teachers are not SLT and because I have a teach first background I have friends who are still teaching in some quite tough schools which form quite a contrast to where I am now.

SO you are happy for your SLT salary to drop bellow that of your friends who are in 'quite tough' schools?

'Things happen in-between lessons in corridors. A meltdown could happen because a child doesn't want to leave the classroom.'

Why do you want to apportion fault?'

You have apportioned 'fault' to the child, for 'not wanting to leave the classroom'.

Where is the person responsible for this child? Why haven't they identified this child's difficulty, addressed it and ensured that it doesn't happen enough to prevent an increase in engagement and participation in the child's education?

Everyone seems to assume it would all be about exam performance. But it needn't be. Surely it could be about managing some of these social issues? There are teachers at the school my husband is a governor of who are are lazy (or were, they have now left, thankfully). Why should they paid more every year and why shouldn't the hardworking teachers earn more? He finds it very hard to know that one teacher could earn more than another even though she's not putting as much as in as another who simply hasn't been in the job for as long.

Why do you need an hour a day to ensure you deliver evidence-based practice in your classroom?

That is simply ridiculous to me and the silliest argument against accountability I have heard.

I think it is perfectly possible to measure performance, actually, even in teaching. I get appraised partly on the basis of how much my team develops. You just need to get the baseline right.

who is teaching my lessons while i am shadowing this child in an attempt to anticipate and prevent meltdowns? am i following them around at break,or lunch? in the toilets? on the school bus?

there is a lot that is in my control. i would very respectfully suggest that things which occur when i am not physically present are not in my control.