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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think NCT classes are a waste of time & money?

236 replies

LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 08:18

Am I been unreasonable to think NCT classes are a waste of time and money after only attending the first session and the only reason I should go back is to get to know the other new mums to be because they all seem like a really nice bunch of ladies.

Attended our first NCT session last night and I have to say I was really disappointed in the class. The two and a half hour session was boring and verging on condescending. The activities can only be compared to those crappy training activities you get in crappy work based training sessions. The MW is clearly pro natural birth with no intervention what's so ever including any form of pain relief and her method of trying to scare the new mums into following her path was crap IMHO. For example she proclaimed swaddling new borns has been linked to cot deaths! When I asked her to give us some facts so we could understand what exactly the risk associated to swaddling is, she couldn't. [Hmm] The breast feeding guilt trip started last night please don't got me wrong i understand the benefits of breast feeding a new born She clearly hasn't considered that there may be mums in the group that will struggle with breast feeding and they way she went on anyone that does struggle will feel like a failure and like they are letting their baby down this goes for anything other than a VB with no pain relief too

I am a logical person and it frustrated me that the MW didn't seem able to back her statements up with actual facts. She just blubbed scary shit and there was no opportunity for real discussion. Either she is not used to people asking questions or she was just trying to frighten us into following the path that she did when she had her children. So much for giving new mums to be the relevant unbiased information so we can prepare for the birth / post birth including what could go wrong and god forbid anything does go wrong we can at least be informed so we can make decisions quickly. If last nights session is a sign of things to come I think the MW is going to get a shock because I won't be able to sit there and just nod!

I understand at 29 weeks pregnant I can be a bit unreasonable sometimes. So please ladies AIBU?

OP posts:
LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 16:49

Hatty they NCT do now have post birth classes and I am also booked on those. But not setting my expectations to high.

GreenShadow thank you I didn't know about the other NCT social events.

OP posts:
LifeofPo · 17/10/2013 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 17:00

I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the couples from last night don't actually come back.

OP posts:
ananikifo · 17/10/2013 17:08

DH and I are glad we did NCT classes but they were not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. People in my group asked about ff and we were told the NCT doesn't allow the teachers to cover ff. In our bf session the teacher refused to talk about bf problems because if you latched properly (like she showed us, in less than 5 minutes) you wouldn't have any problems. Hmm The session on CS only really covered how many people were in theatre and how scary it is. Forceps and ventouse weren't covered at all, even though I do believe they are on the list of topics that should have been covered.

On the other hand, DH is now so much more confident about what will happen and how he can support me that I have to say it was worth it for that.

I wish the rest of our group lived closer to us but they are lovely and I hope we can keep in touch. I'm very happy for everyone here who doesn't need mummy friends but I have only one friend who is home during the day, and only one day a week. Mat leave would be very lonely if I didn't make an effort to go to mum groups and make friends through things like NCT.

Fabsmum · 17/10/2013 17:11

OK - this may be a bit long, so bear with me. Smile

Disclaimer: I am an NCT antenatal teacher.

Apologies for this EPIC post. I've been chewing on this thread all day. I'm going to offload but may try to come back briefly later and respond, if anyone has any specific questions or comments for me.

First off NCT training: NCT teachers come from a range of backgrounds, including teaching (me), nursing, midwifery, and other professions. There are a good number of midwives who are NCT trained, who teach for the NCT, and there are NCT teachers who are not midwives who are teaching NHS classes in hospitals around the UK. As far as the length of training goes - it took me 5 years part time, but other people manage it in 2. The training has recently changed and become shorter in response to the increase in University fees. Can't say I'm not worried about this.

Second disclaimer: I acknowledge there are no doubt some awful NCT teachers. I have met a couple. Angry

Some observations:

People's actual memories of what they covered in NCT, and what opinions were expressed during their course are hugely, hugely coloured (I use that word advisedly - my first thought was to use the word 'distorted') by what happened to them around the time of the birth. And women come with their own agendas, which are often far more opaque, to them and to us, than any agenda of our own we might have. And these agendas shape their memories of the course and their feelings about it afterwards.

When I attend a reunion I ask the clients to identify one thing they really wish the course had covered/were glad the course had covered, so I can consider that when I teach my next lot of parents. I also ask this question on the electronic feedback forms I send them. Invariably clients will say something like - 'I really wish I'd known something about colic/realised how weird I'd feel in the first week/known I might feel like I've been hit by a bus'. And I stand there and think 'we did cover that. At length. In detail. You had hand outs. Follow up emails with links to mumsnet discussions. And sometimes I think - "I actually used the phrase 'you may feel like you've been hit by a bus' and we drew a diagram of a postnatal body, flagging up symptoms and talking about how to treat them, and I saw the fear in your eyes and went home feeling guilty".

Note: I say 'stand there listening' because I think it's disrespectful to try and cover my arse in a situation like this. I've come to the conclusion that something about childbirth and becoming a parent blows every part of your life and your psyche to pieces, and they reassemble in such a way as to make everything that's gone before a foreign country, and that this is just the way it is. Not much lingers. Including what they covered in NCT!

I accept that very little I personally do on the course will stick and will make a difference. Apart from the friendships, and hopefully the message: DO IT YOUR OWN WAY. I try to make people feel that they have it in them to make the right choices (which will not all be the same) for their baby because they will love their children and do their very best by them, and that they need to trust themselves. I don't think this actually suits some people - they want to be TOLD what to do, because it makes them feel safe at a time when they are actually a bit terrified about the whole prospect of parenting. It's like they feel the course isn't worth the money unless it's really prescriptive, but if we are prescriptive then you can guarantee that some people will find the content useless and sometimes downright offensive.

As far as the 'natural birth agenda' goes - we are doomed which ever way we play this one. I have had feedback from the same course from clients describing the content as 'negative and scaremongering' and 'reassuring and realistic'.

One client I've never forgotten came to a course in a state of complete evangelism about going to a free-standing birth centre 30 miles from where she lived. She spent her pregnancy reading natural birth books and was quite preachy to the rest of the class who had all booked into the local hospital. I never undermine people's choices, but when we were talking about birth settings I made the comment 'some women find the pain of labour absolutely unbearable and those women will need an epidural to have a happy birth experience'. We talked about transfer rates from homebirths and birth centres. In the event she ended up on the labour ward of our local hospital. Her baby was born with a previously undiagnosed health problem and the whole experience was very traumatic (although with a good ending - her little boy is completely well now). I saw her a few months down the line at a nearly new sale, and she cornered me and said plaintively, 'why didn't you tell me how painful it was?'. And I couldn't answer her. Because I did tell her, and she didn't want to hear it! And I have no doubt at all that she's told lots and lots of people that NCT classes are unrealistic about the need for pain relief in labour - because that's what she remembers. But it's not what happened!

Would also point out that it's completely not unrealistic for the NCT to communicate to mothers that the majority of healthy women can have a straightforward experience of labour - even with a first baby. BUT ONLY IF THOSE WOMEN ARE GIVING BIRTH IN SETTINGS WHICH ARE SUPPORTIVE OF NORMAL BIRTH, AND HAVE GOOD CARE. And this, for me, is the nub of the issue. We give clients the message: if you are low risk (most are) you should have a good chance at an intervention free birth (because the outcomes for healthy first time mums opting to labour in birth centres and at home bears this out), but the reality is they will hear this message, and then they flock on mass to labour in settings where intervention rates are sky high. Because that's where the beds are, that's where they feel safe, and that's where the epidurals are. And then, in large numbers, they'll generally have births which involve a colossal amount of intervention. I regularly have whole groups where all the women are low risk at the start of labour, slim, fit, healthy, and where you'll see one normal birth out of six, with the rest having forceps/ventouse/emergency cs. And yet they've all gone into the experience hoping for a normal birth and being encouraged to believe that they have a reasonable chance of one. No wonder the NCT cops so much flack. We are being scapegoated for being the ones giving the message that 'most women can have normal births' in a maternity system which somehow seems to be making this impossible for ridiculously large numbers. And you know midwives are incredibly kind on the whole, and really hard working, and are with women at the most intense point in their lives. Understandably women don't usually want to blame them for anything. And they don't want to believe that their labour could have been any different to how it was, or managed in a different way which might have given them a better birth experience. If women are treated with kindness, and come through birth with a well baby they tend to be very loyal to their birth experience, no matter what. So they look back on their NCT classes as being unrealistic and naïve, midwives (who as a group are often eaten up with angst about the part they play in relation to the rates of intervention in the labours of healthy women) sometimes encourage them to view the NCT in this way, and some actually feel furious with the NCT for what they see as setting them up for disappointment.

Anyway, apologies for the essay.

One last comment: NCT teachers can cover anything they or the clients bloody well want in classes, including bottle feeding. There is no ban on discussing it, if clients have indicated this is something they want to cover, it's simply not a 'routine' part of the course. The only thing they - and midwives in the NHS - are discouraged from doing is demonstrations on how to make up a bottle, because research shows that parents don't retain this information accurately enough to do it safely after the birth. Instead they can discuss the issues surrounding bottle preparation, how to choose formula, how to bottle feed, and give out printed information showing how to make up a bottle. If anyone has had the experience of being told: we can't talk about bottle feeding - phone up the NCT and complain.

AveryJessup · 17/10/2013 17:12

The content in my NCT course years ago was similar to yours, OP, vague statements, heavily laden with an agenda, delivered in a patronizing manner. We never went back after the first session. I met a couple of nice people through it though and we stayed in touch.

LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 17:15

Jst read a couple of articles on Kirsty Allsops comments. Sounds fair to me based on last night but I will see how next week goes. It's a breastfeeding session.

OP posts:
LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 17:33

Fabsmum I can see your passion and I see where you are coming from. I am sure there are some fantastic nCT failitators and classes out there. But the session i attened was very very poor. There were just a number of things that were just crap. The facilitator was telling us the only way our babies would sleep was if we co slept (cant remeber her exact words). But she said it and got defensive when a few of us questioned it and wanted a further discussion on it. She clearly had no interest in discussing FF when one of the other mothers raised this. The course I attended last night is not good enough. It was poor, the activities were armature/condescending and the whole two and a half session was boring you could see people staring into space. When asked questions the facilitator either sounded defence or just brushed over it. It's just not good enough.

I am sure your courses are not like this but tust me last nights session was as bad as some of the other ladies have experienced in the past.

OP posts:
hackmum · 17/10/2013 17:40

Just to go back to the point about swaddling. This is the guidance on swaddling from NCT's website, which is very even-handed:

www.nct.org.uk/parenting/how-do-i-swaddle-my-baby

LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 17:45

With regards the swaddling issue. My point on that was its ok to tell us that swaddling is linked to cot deaths but when asked by the delegates why that is or what is the level of risk and why. we expect the facilitator to have a discussion about it rather than get defensive and basically say thats how it is. Its bonkers.

OP posts:
Pobblewhohasnotoes · 17/10/2013 17:54

spritesoright did you go to my Nct and NHS classes? As they sound exactly the same!

I felt like we were very prepared for birth but they didn't really go through looking after a baby, apart from 'a day in the life of' where you passed the doll round. SIDS guidelines wasn't mentioned or anything, no info on sleeping.

TarkaTheOtter · 17/10/2013 18:08

OP why not just call it quits and ask for a refund?

BikeRunSki · 17/10/2013 18:18

I joined to meet people. Five years later, we still meet up with our second and third children.

As importantly, the classes helped me to know what was going on when I needed an emcs rather than a water birth.

The friendship group supported one of the families in a way no one else could have done when their baby died at 2 days old.

When ds lost 23% of his birth weight in a week and I decided to ff, it was my NCT leader who told me " there are many ways to nurture a baby, feeding is just one of them".

My experience of NCT has only been positive, to the extent that I was chair person of my local branch for a few years.

LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 18:22

Tarka I was going to do that but then considered that 13 months on ML on your own could become depressing. So thought stick it out for maybe having a network of other mothers going through the same things. It just frustrates me that something that could be so good and informative is so disappointed bad.

OP posts:
thebody · 17/10/2013 18:30

why are you paying for something that's offered free on the NHS?

no one can really prepare you for your birth to be honest as noone yet knows how your birth will pan out. still it's a nice way to meet up with other mums.

re the BF/FF and pain relief in birth.

do what you bloody want op. neither is right or wrong and neither is the least business of anyone else accept you.

thebody · 17/10/2013 18:31

why are you paying for something that's offered free on the NHS?

no one can really prepare you for your birth to be honest as noone yet knows how your birth will pan out. still it's a nice way to meet up with other mums.

re the BF/FF and pain relief in birth.

do what you bloody want op. neither is right or wrong and neither is the least business of anyone else accept you.

Scholes34 · 17/10/2013 18:36

When I made enquiries about NCT classes when I was 20 weeks pregnant I was told quite bluntly that I'd left it far too late and all classes were full. The free classes offered by the NHS were excellent and I made some good friends. However, you can also make "mummy friends" away from ante-natal classes.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2013 18:36

why are you paying for something that's offered free on the NHS?

I did both, the NHS was good but (my) NCT group was better

Ginnytonic82 · 17/10/2013 18:37

Peapod in answer to your earlier question there were a few shocked faces! Dh and I left almost as soon as the incident happened with the GP and her partner and another couple. We've subsequently all complained, but their response so far has been paltry to say the very least.

bigkidsdidit · 17/10/2013 18:58

I couldn't go to NHS classes because they were all at 11am on a tuesday!

Topseyt · 17/10/2013 19:29

I had three children. I didn't join the NCT. I just did the free NHS classes, and that was fine for me.

I have an aversion to paying a large sum of money for something when I can get it for free.

hackmum · 17/10/2013 19:31

thebody: "why are you paying for something that's offered free on the NHS?"

I went to the NHS classes and the NCT ones. The NHS ones weren't a patch on the NCT ones - there were about 30 women in the group, there were only three sessions, and it they basically consisted of the midwife just telling us stuff. There were 8 NCT sessions, with eight couples, and the teaching was very interactive, with loads of group work and practical activities. Very different.

picniclady · 17/10/2013 19:41

Yabu, I loved it. NCT breastfeeding support is invaluable imo, out of six couples on my course five managed to bf for a year due to the NCT breastfeeding counselor support in the early days.

LittlePeaPod · 17/10/2013 19:43

TheBody with regards your query why are you paying for something that's offered free on the NHS?

There are no NHS sessions running were we are at the moment. So our only option is NCT.

OP posts:
HorryIsUpduffed · 17/10/2013 19:44

My NHS class was delivered by an NCT teacher as that's who the hospital had a contract with...

But I was bloody lucky to get on said course. They said not to bother ringing up until 26w. I got twitchy and rang at 22w and only managed to get in a class on a cancellation.

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