AIBU to think NCT classes are a waste of time & money?

[LittlePeaPod]

Am I been unreasonable to think NCT classes are a waste of time and money after only attending the first session and the only reason I should go back is to get to know the other new mums to be because they all seem like a really nice bunch of ladies.

Attended our first NCT session last night and I have to say I was really disappointed in the class. The two and a half hour session was boring and verging on condescending. The activities can only be compared to those crappy training activities you get in crappy work based training sessions. The MW is clearly pro natural birth with no intervention what's so ever including any form of pain relief and her method of trying to scare the new mums into following her path was crap IMHO. For example she proclaimed swaddling new borns has been linked to cot deaths! When I asked her to give us some facts so we could understand what exactly the risk associated to swaddling is, she couldn't. [Hmm] The breast feeding guilt trip started last night please don't got me wrong i understand the benefits of breast feeding a new born She clearly hasn't considered that there may be mums in the group that will struggle with breast feeding and they way she went on anyone that does struggle will feel like a failure and like they are letting their baby down this goes for anything other than a VB with no pain relief too

I am a logical person and it frustrated me that the MW didn't seem able to back her statements up with actual facts. She just blubbed scary shit and there was no opportunity for real discussion. Either she is not used to people asking questions or she was just trying to frighten us into following the path that she did when she had her children. So much for giving new mums to be the relevant unbiased information so we can prepare for the birth / post birth including what could go wrong and god forbid anything does go wrong we can at least be informed so we can make decisions quickly. If last nights session is a sign of things to come I think the MW is going to get a shock because I won't be able to sit there and just nod!

I understand at 29 weeks pregnant I can be a bit unreasonable sometimes. So please ladies AIBU?

[Phineyj]

My DH found the classes very beneficial - he kept learning info I had tried to tell him outside the class and then he'd tell me about it proudly .

Our facilitator was quite good and she did cover C-section (just as well as 50% of the group had them) and was responsive to group questions & interests. I did feel a bit like you about the whole thing though. I mentioned PND at one point though (it was a worry as a friend's Dsis had post-partum psychosis and has never really covered) and they were all a bit .

The other women were mostly pretty nice and we do meet up, although it would be stretching it to describe them as close friends. As it was in London a lot were foreign nationals and spent large chunks of their mat leave abroad, which wasn't much use to me.

I thought the cost was reasonable if you compare it to an evening class.

My Dsis was surprised when she looked at the materials I was given - she felt they were much more balanced than those she was given 10 years ago.

They do do a lot of cheaper activities if you don't want the classes - in our area there is an antenatal exercise class that I found was very good, and it was pay as you go.

[LittlePeaPod]

Worried. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was attacking Fabsmum personally. My point was relating to the comment that the reason some groups are poor is because the whole group are miserable and sit there looking like they are sucking lemons etc. I agree within every group you will have one maybe two people that could be seen as difficult but to tar a whole group is unfair. I think its important that the different learning styles (activity/reflection/theory/practical) are address so the person that likes the little stickers gets as much out of it as the person that likes the debate or simply to sit, listen and reflect. Organising the session and taking this into account will help everyone get the most out of it. I guess that's what I was expecting from our session. An experienced professional facilitator that knew their subject and could adapt their style so everyone got the most out of the session. Instead we had a session were everything was activity (not good ones IMO) focused and no opportunity to discuss or debrief. Just jumped from one activity to the next. But this leads me back to the fact the NCT should support their facilitators and have some standardisation that can be measured.

[BangOn]

lots of disparaging remarks about the NCT's apparent dogmatic approach to natural childbirth. Have to say that wasn't my personal experience.

Ironically, this reminds me quite a bit of the way some people are so quick to diss the NHS; forgetting why either of these great british institution was set up in the first place!

The great advances in the safety & cleanliness of childbirth which the NHS achieved in its infancy (no pun intended) had the unintended consequence of over-medicalising & mechanising a normal physiological process needlessly in low-risk cases, reducing the amount of relaxed atmosphere homebirths, & certainly in Dick-Read's day resulting in huge numbers of healthy, low-risk women giving birth unconscious & unaware of the birth process itself (& not through choice, but out of a patriarchal desire to 'protect' patients from the 'horrors' of labour). Hence the NCT, which in many ways is inseperable fron the feminist movement itself - founded with the aim of reclaiming a woman's right to choose what happens to

[BangOn]

sorry -

what happens to their own bodies (& minds) during labour.

just as people take for granted the huge medical leaps made by the NHS, I think people forget just how much the natural childbirth movement has achieved; MLUs, doulas, birth plans, skin to skin contact, attachment parenting, birth pools in hospitals, breastfeeding awareness... not that any of us are compelked to do any of these things, but just the mere fact that we're all aware of them as options owes a huge amount to the NCT.

[cory]

What I found so great about the NHS course was that it was run by experienced midwives who had attended hundreds of births and seen all sorts of different circumstances.

The NCT facilitators I have known have only really had experience of their own labours. One was absolutely sold on a private birthing unit (which I couldn't afford, but apparently the biscuits are very nice) and was adamant that this kind of setup was essential to a happy birth experience. Because it had been essential to her wellbeing- and that was all the experience she had to build on.

She also insisted years after my second was born that I must feel really sad because I had a caesarian (I wasn't bothered). Because again, she had never seen a caesarian and just assumed it must be a horrible thing.

The midwives on the NHS course otoh were able to give all sorts of handy tips for a range of situations, they arranged a tour of the NICU.

[Echocave]

Yes depends on facilitator but I think any antenatal class is worth it for the friends side.
I knew I had to have c-section before the first class where labour etc was covered extensively. I just tuned out a bit!
Honestly I had suspected, mild depression due to lots of other stuff going on at the time, had feeding difficulties etc and didnt exactly do anything the NCT way but I have a really nice group of local friends who got me out and about etc. Several years on we still compare notes on what our children are up to and laugh about toddlerdom and I feel very lucky to have them.
I know not everyone hits it off so well with their group but if you feel like spending the money and time, I think it's worth a go.

[DontMentionThePrunes]

The trouble is with pointing out that some groups will be better than others, some will be harder to teach: this is just teaching. That's what it's like. A teacher is prepared and has tools to bring the more difficult groups around, and also to calm the more exuberant groups down if necessary. In part that's what teacher training is all about.

You don't just go in as the teacher and hold your hands up and say 'well, this is a difficult group, I wonder if I'm meeting their needs, and wouldn't it be easier if they all sparked off one another?!' You are prepared for a difficult group.

[LittlePeaPod]

BangOn I don't believe the comments are disparaging about the entire NCT organisation. The NCTs legacy with regards giving women choice in terms of the birthing process, empowering women to make informed choices on all their delivery options and educating women on all the benefits and risks attached to the various choices should be applauded and respected. The organisation does champion itself as a charity that supports parents, gives accurate and impartial information so parents can make the best choices/decisions for their families.

All of this in theory is great but the question is how well are these organisational values actually delivered on the ground. A couple of points from my perspective. First point, its clear to me from some of the posts on here, speaking to people in RL and my brief experience this week clearly this may change through the coursethat these peoples perception is that the NCT classes not necessarily the organisation are not impartial. It seems there is much more focus on VBs and not the same level of focus on alternative options. (ELCS etc.). I also get the feeling i may be wrong that any form intervention is either not discussed in depth or indirectly discouraged and medical professionals opinions are belittle (e.g you don't have to do what the medical team advise etc.). If my assumptions on this point are even a little correct then the NCTs organisational values are not been delivered on the ground in the way the organisation champions itself (eg giving accurate and impartial information). The question for me then is why is this? Is it facilitators are pushing their own beliefs and agendas on parents? Or is the organisations public values actually different to what is encourage in practice?

I believe impartiality and accurate information is important so women are empowered to make the best choice they can, whilst accepting no one really ever knows how any birth with progress. The more informed parents are the more flexible they are likely to be when in labour and the greater the chance of a positive experience and recovery. Hopefully we can get away from some mothers feeling or been made to feel ashamed, cheated and/or disappointed when a VB doesn't go to plan and those that have CS aren't stigmatised as "too posh to push, not trusting their bodies, lazy etc.".

Second point, the actual delivery of the classes. I do think the organisation should have some form of standardisation whilst allowing facilitators the flexibility to adapt the course to the needs or request of the group. This way the facilitators can get support not sure how much support they get in terms of delivering courses that will ensure as many people are engaged as possible. Having lots and lots of activities within a session with tenuous links to a particular subject and no debate/discussion just isn't good enough. I accept that some people will find this form of training engaging however this will not be the case for those individuals with different learning / communication styles. I wonder how is the feedback post course evaluated? Is this done centrally and do the NCT have a good understanding of what delegates/participants are saying positive and negative? Or does the feedback not go any further than the facilitator? I wouldn't know because I don't work for them. All I know was I was very disappointed with the initial session I attended and I really hope things improve. My impression is also that our group will not be receiving impartial training and the all natural VB agenda will be pushed and focused on. I really hope I am proved wrong and I can start a thread in the future long the lines of "I was unreasonable to upload this thread". Which I would do if the sessions I am attending did challenge my initial impression.

With regards your thoughts on the NHS, well that's a whole other thread.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Great analysis of the NCT PeaPod - one thought from me is that perhaps it's a mistake of the NCT to say they offer "impartial" advice, accurate maybe (or they could at least aspire to that ?) - but with their beginnings in the natural birth movement can they or would they really want to be or claim to be "impartial"

[LittlePeaPod]

Juggling I do agree with you. If the NCTs real focus is VBs with little or no intervention I am reluctant to use the phrase natural birth because I believe all births are natural regardless of the method of delivery eg VB or CS then they should be more transparent about this and remove the impartial phrase from their literature/value statements. There is nothing wrong with them fighting for the no intervention VB cause but personally I would not donate or pay a birthing organisation that was not impartial. If this is/was transparently the case, I would never have paid to attend one of their courses. But at least I would have made an informed decision.

[thebody]

I think its terrible that some of you had to pay for classes. mine were all free on the NHS and were fine.

however I am a nurse so perhaps didn't need quite so much info and really just went for the social side if things.

I guess it depends in demand and where you live.

op afraid child birth so incalculable that you just can't really prepare yourself for it totally.

a good midwife that you trust to put yours and your babies needs first is the key.

essentially you have to trust the professionals and some are fantastic and some are less so

[LittlePeaPod]

thebody I totally agree. No one can predicate how any birth will go. I guess I just want accurate and impartial information. I want to be informed. I don't want to be told what I should do because that's what someone else believes. It's my body, my baby and my choice. I would love to have the confidence that a well respected and long standing organisation like the NCT would deliver accurate and unbiased information. Just like their website testifies to.

[Treague2]

To some extent, what the NCT wants to deliver is impossible to deliver.
There is no formula for the sort of birth they would class as optimum:

• yes they have made inroads and done good work in raising awareness of the inherent patriarchal bias of birth as something which is done to a woman, but crucially that work has not won over even some midwives, and certainly not most obstetricians

• there is very little funding for providing environments for large numbers of women to go through a complex, unpredictable process with the very best of staffing

• if they cannot address the fact that some women will choose caesarians or epidurals yet still want good information, there is little hope that they will be able to communicate the complicated swings-and-roundabouts nature of giving birth in an NHS hospital

It's quite possible that the evening class model at £40 per session is just not the right way to do what it is they want to do. Unfortunately they don't agree, and seemingly neither do the punters.

[Worriedthistimearound]

There should be more unbiased info on csections but I don't think there's anything wrong with them focusing on vaginal birth with as little intervention as needed. I'm very surprised that anyone signing up for NCT doesn't expect that. After all the vast majority of women do want that type of birth. Not all, I know, but most. The idea of a csection terrified me but it certainly should be covered because as well as the small group of women who chose an elective for whatever reason (their choice IMO), there will also be those whose plans for a vb didn't work out and a csection was necessary.

The formula feeding is a tricky one as there are struck government guildlines prohibiting the promotion of formula feeding for infants. There would be no harm in explaining to the class that if they wanted to ff then they should discuss this with their midwife. Though I think it's fair to accept that they are an organisation with bf at their core.

[daughterofafarmer]

Didn't find the class hugely useful, however this afternoon my NTC friend (one of them) and her family come to see us. 3 yrs on, we are still great friends and keep in touch, despite us moving away.

I have signed up for a refresher classeven through I'm having an ELCS for DC2 just to meet a few more new friends. For me NCT was always more about having local support system for once the baby arrive rather than the 'information'.

[NewbieMcNewbie]

Very glad I did it. For the email addresses, phone numbers and general camaraderie. I really enjoyed our weekly get-togethers. We had nothing in common bar the babies but babies were all we wanted to talk about in the first few months anyway so it didn't matter. It was nice to know people with babies the exact same age as mine.

Actual content of classes was not so useful but then first time births very rarely go how people hope and not many get the NCT poster-birth, as it were. Ours covered everything, including pain relief, interventions and c-sections. It's not their fault I had a difficult labour that required more than a massage with a tennis ball for me to survive it.

Still in touch with majority of group 3 yrs on, although we are scattered around country (and world actually) now so don't meet face-to-face anymore. Still email and FB occasionally though. It's a nice connection.

[pastelmacaroons]

worried

There should be more unbiased info on csections but I don't think there's anything wrong with them focusing on vaginal birth with as little intervention as needed. I'm very surprised that anyone signing up for NCT doesn't expect that. After all the vast majority of women do want that type of birth. Not all, I know, but most. The idea of a csection terrified me but it certainly should be covered because as well as the small group of women who chose an elective for whatever reason (their choice IMO), there will also be those whose plans for a vb didn't work out and a csection was necessary.


Until more information about sections is given out nad talked about and more women are allowed to have them its impossible to say that most women want x type of birth, as presently only really vaginal birth is on the choice menu!

Give women a fair choice, then say - they want x birth.

[pastelmacaroons]

BTW our class leader was lovely, spoke loads about candles and bringing that loving feeling into the birth pool!

I will never forget her face as during the meet up, she had to listen to one horror story after another!

[AllBoxedUp]

I did view the main point of NCT classes as finding a support network for maternity leave. We don't have any family nearby and my NCT friends were really great in the first few weeks after the birth when I wasn't ready for baby and toddler groups.
The classes themselves were fine apart from the last breast feeding class. We hadn't covered feeding in any of the others and people asked some questions about FF and got a very frosty reception. It was a different teacher and she was pretty terrible - kept on moaning about how tired she was!
We did the C section thing where they showed us how many people would be in the theatre and that was the best bit for me as DS was breech and I had an elective CS.
In my area I was really encouraged by the midwives to do the NCT class if I could afford it. I think they didn't have many spaces on the NHS classes and the time had been cut down. A friend who did both said the NCT class talked about all the drawbacks of the different pain relief options and the NHS class just ran through when you could ask for them!

[womma]

I had a very similar experience with my NCT classes to the OP. It was all very much about keeping it natural and any intervention was inferred that it was a failure on the mother's part. The woman who ran it is not a midwife but has written a couple of books on childbirth, and is obviously one of that breed of women who give birth to a baby as easily as you would a well buttered lemon pip. So she had a particular view of childbirth based on her own experience. Funnily enough, every single woman in our group had really difficult births, and we all needed intervention.

The facilitator certainly didn't like anyone asking too many questions or daring to push for her facts to be explained. She pointedly blanked one couple who questioned her for the rest of the sessions! I later found out from someone else that she is well known in our area for being 'fucking nuts'.

I really tried to make friends with my group, but they were very cliquey and after a while I just couldn't be bothered with them talking about house prices, how much their weddings cost and their husband's jobs.

So all in all, yes, for me it was a waste of time and money. I'm pregnant again and will do a refresher class at the hospital and save some m

[womma]

I had a very similar experience with my NCT classes to the OP. It was all very much about keeping it natural and any intervention was inferred that it was a failure on the mother's part. The woman who ran it is not a midwife but has written a couple of books on childbirth, and is obviously one of that breed of women who give birth to a baby as easily as you would a well buttered lemon pip. So she had a particular view of childbirth based on her own experience. Funnily enough, every single woman in our group had really difficult births, and we all needed intervention.

The facilitator certainly didn't like anyone asking too many questions or daring to push for her facts to be explained. She pointedly blanked one couple who questioned her for the rest of the sessions! I later found out from someone else that she is well known in our area for being 'fucking nuts'.

I really tried to make friends with my group, but they were very cliquey and after a while I just couldn't be bothered with them talking about house prices, how much their weddings cost and their husband's jobs.

So all in all, yes, for me it was a waste of time and money. I'm pregnant again and will do a refresher class at the hospital and save some money.

[Worriedthistimearound]

I disagree pastel, I think that most women do want as natural a birth as possible. Of course some women want a csection and as I said, those women should absolutely be allowed to discuss their reasons and ultimately opt for a CS if that's what they want.

I'm on my 4th pregnancy and have done a couple if refresher courses as well as the original course in order to meet other mums. I've met quite a few women who have had csections but none who actively wanted one first time around and a couple who were desperate for a vbac 2nd time around mainly due to recovery.

So I've no doubt that some women are always sure they want a CS and I agree it should be discussed more openly but I firmly disagree with the notion that a sizeable proportion of women actually want a CS first time around. Though I concede that women who want a CS for a second or subsequent birth due to a bad experienced first time around often need to fight for it which is unacceptable.

[LittlePeaPod]

Worried. I think the most you can say is in your opinion, experience and discussing this with people you know, you believe that most women share your feelings and want as natural a birth as possible. When I look at my network of friends, family and colleagues, actually all of them want(ed) a CS, or epidural and non of them wanted an intervention free birth. They had no interest in the whole VB with as little intervention as possible. Based on that I would not assume that the majority of the rest of the female population want some form of intervention. I also believe there is some fear attached to women honestly saying what the want because culturally there is so much pressure/expectation that women should have/want a VB with as little intervention as possible. There is some form of stigma judgement attached to people that choose a different delivery method (CS for example). IMO this is all driven by our antenatal educators.

Pastel I agree that until we have a system that adequately educates women on all their options we will never truly know what women want. It would actually make an interesting study --if it was done by an impartial team e.g not NHS or NCT etc.)

We have slightly digressed from my op which is relating to NCT objectives and educators. The interesting thing is, when we consider that more than 50% of births end in some form of intervention and 1 in 4 women have a CS, IMO it's shortsighted for antenatal education to solely push for focus on VBs and women managing without some form of intervention (pain relief etc.). Personally I believe that all antenatal educators have a duty to help women understand that that intervention may be necessary and for a quarter of them a CS will be the way their baby is delivered and that these delivery methods do not take away from their whole birthing experience. Surely the healthiest approach is to have impartial education so women are fully informed on all options and can make informed decisions. I think the healthiest approach should be to focus on a psychologically and physically healthy mother and baby rather than the means by which the baby is delivered.

Again, it seems consistent that the one thing people agree on is that the NCT can be a place to possibly meet other new mums and this network can be very supportive in the early days.

[Svrider]

I have 3 DC, and was never told about ANY of these classes
The midwives were then when I looked vacant at them when they asked about birth plan etc
It also explains why I didn't know about the special out of hours door to the delivery room and used the "wrong" in work hours door instead
This was a big deal apparently.....

[usuallyright]

I had three uncomplicated vaginal deliveries the nct would be proud of. But I avoided nct classes because I'd heard from numerous friends that they focused on the birth massively. And I've never been obsessed with have birth process. It's something to get past so you can see your baby, imo. The very nature of birth is often so unpredictable that massively over preparing for it, writing long rambling birth plans etc.. Is to miss the whole point of pregnancy=Parenthood. I had a hunch that some nct'ers treated the whole experience of birth and parenting as a competitive sport and that's not for me.