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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

am IBU to be ablsolutely disgusted that baby Ps mother

267 replies

issey6cats · 08/10/2013 16:55

will be released after serving just 4 years in prison for the murder of baby P shes still young enough to go on to have other children, and its a disgrace that what baby P suffered is thought to only carry 4 years punishment

OP posts:
skylerwhite · 08/10/2013 23:17

tinyturtle Your post did say every family.

But if you aren't proposing a sort of negative interpretation of the right to have children - what then are you proposing to 'stop the buck' before people get to perpetrate these crimes?

MrsDeVere · 08/10/2013 23:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HardFacedCareeristBitchNigel · 08/10/2013 23:21

So do something about it, then.
What, precisely, do you think that I am going to do about changing government-imposed sentencing guidelines ?

HardFacedCareeristBitchNigel · 08/10/2013 23:22

Billy Jo Jenkins also another case in point, Mrsdevere

friday16 · 08/10/2013 23:25

What, precisely, do you think that I am going to do about changing government-imposed sentencing guidelines?

The Sentencing Council is seeking the opinion of legal professionals working in the justice system. I assume you take part in the consultations? I'm not a lawyer, but I can find small pieces of my wording in a couple of pieces of legislation from where I got involved in consultations, so I presume that the same applies in this case.

sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/get-involved/consultations.htm

friday16 · 08/10/2013 23:26

Billy Jo Jenkins also another case in point, Mrsdevere

What, a case where no safe conviction has ever been obtained? Oh, of course, sorry: 'course he was guilty, stands to reason, dunnit? I had that Lord Chief Justice in the back of my cab, guv, waste of space. String 'em up, I say, it's the only language they understand.

MrsDeVere · 08/10/2013 23:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lilka · 08/10/2013 23:31

My experiences tell me that abuse is genuinely everywhere - I would say that these superficially naice middle class wealthy abusers in the commuter belt towns are probably VERY good at disguising abuse. They are way less likely to come to the attention of social services in the first place, and conscious or unconscious social stereotyping by neighbours/teachers etc is probably one good reason for it. One of my friends husbands is a police officer who has a lot of experience with sexual abuse cases, and is very clear that sexual abuse truly happens in every kind of family. Which is also my experience.

Also, let's imagine a wealthy family where the parents are very neglectful, emotionally abusive, the father works away from home in the city and the stay at home mum has a drug addiction and is zonked out on the sofa most of the time. Because they are wealthy, that mum can probably afford to both buy all the drugs she needs AND buy food to put in the fridge AND the childrens clothes. So the children look relatively clean, mostly well fed, clothes aren't ruined

Contrast with a very poor family in a council house where one parent is doing a MW job or unemployed and the other is hoplessly addicted. Can they afford food/clothes and drugs? Not likely. Consequences - children look visibly neglected, hungry and dirty.

Who's more likely to be reported to SS?

Gossipmonster · 08/10/2013 23:32

She will not be given a new identity.

Any further children she has will almost certainly be taken into care.

She did not physically kill her child (in the eyes of the law) - although personally find it abhorrent she stood by and did nothing to protect him.

Neither did the police, social services or health kill him.

JockTamsonsBairns · 08/10/2013 23:32

Statistically speaking, Baby P himself had every chance of growing up to be a violent abuser had he survived. At what age should we be sterilising young people before they get the chance to go on to reproduce, and continue the cycle of abuse? 12? 13?

Is this what posters mean by stopping the buck?

friday16 · 08/10/2013 23:40

Who's more likely to be reported to SS?

Who's more likely to die?

ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee · 08/10/2013 23:59

She shouldn't be allowed out - ever. Nor the other bastards who were involved.

sashh · 09/10/2013 05:53

Bowlersarm

They take int account time on remand, and she was on remand for quite a while.

tinyturtletim · 09/10/2013 06:10

if a family has a social worker or an assigned professional for any reason to avoid these cases they should be put under pressure to be providing proof their children are being looked after correctly.

skyler please read again, that does not say everysingle family in the uk.

mrsd thats quite interesting actually, I think I would definitely become quite addicted to reading online about them, there is a website my husband sometimes reads to fill time about different people he is very interested in the the mind and things like this.

Very true, her lawyer would no doubt of gone down the route of pnd to get her a lesser sentence?

Florencefortea · 09/10/2013 15:21

Hi
I rearely post more of a lurker and have namechanged for this but wanted ot add some context of what it's like to be a child in this situation.
I was born into a similarly disfunctional situation to poor little Peter and until I was removed at the age of 2 suffered horrific abuse at the hands of the woman who gave birth to me, my 'father' and a variety of other adults around them.
Although I was well know to SS I was given back to her on more than one occasion and she was allowed to keep my younger sibling when they were born.
Had it not been for a neighbour who one night heard our screams she would have killed us both, we were both in hospital with severe injuries for sometime after, she went to prison for a stupidly short time for her crimes and we went on to live with adoptive parents.
I consider myself to be a pretty gentle, calm person I live a very normal fairly unexciting life, I generally bear no-one any ill will but I would gladly and quite happily torture the people who did this to me,to do to them what they did to me a wee little baby. I have no memory thankfully but I bear the scars of cigerette burns on my body, scars from some of the phyiscal injuries I was given and the stigma of growing up in care - I wasn't adopted until I was much older. I have met her and him a few times and not once have they acknowledged what they did,they blamed each other and anyone else they could think of but not once did they look me in the eye - the person they made and tell me they were sorry.
I have a child of my own now and even more so I can not understand how on earth you hurt a human so small and new, someone who needs you for everything.
I was lucky I escaped but yes I weep for every single child that did not and will not escape and if I could take revenge for them and make the people who hurt them hurt in the same way I would every time. Do I think this monster deserves the chance to even breathe fresh air - no, do I care about her rights as a human being not one bit. Do I hope that she and the other two involved never knows a moments peace or happiness yes. As for her other children, there is hope I promise, ours was quite a profile case, myfoster parents very gently sat me down one day and showed me all the newspaper clippings they had kept and explained it all to me. I was simply grateful to have survived and to have been removed from that life. It also made me very determined to have a brilliant and very happy life of my own.

Ghostsgowoooh · 09/10/2013 15:52

Florence Sad

My heart goes out to you and all the survivors of such horrendous abuse

AgentZigzag · 09/10/2013 16:13

I'm so glad you made it out of that hellhole Florence, and have a beautiful family of your own Smile

Florencefortea · 09/10/2013 16:37

Thank you both for your lovely messages. I do have a very happy contented life. I am incredibly fortunate I remind myself of that everyday.
One day I hope I really hope I can make a difference and make sure other children don't have to go through what I and so many others did. I have no idea how if I am being totally honest, but I am very passionate about this and I will find a way to change things.

AgentZigzag · 09/10/2013 17:06

It doesn't balance out with what they did to you, but thank goodness that neighbour felt some responsibility towards you and took control.

Plenty might have justified it to themselves as none of their business, and probably still do going on all the implausible situations people conjure up on here to explain why you should never judge any situation negatively.

FixItUpChappie · 09/10/2013 17:08

The sentencing was ridiculous. Child abuse and neglect don't get nearly stiff enough penalties.

I don't think there is anything to really prevent her from having more children. There is no law that says you can never have children again. Give it a few years, when her parole is over. People will forget. At the very least the case wont be in the forefront of everyone's minds...nor her specific appearance.

She'll move, lose weight/gain weight, change her hair colour, her hair cut, start calling herself Judy or some such and I bet it wont be as hard as you think to leave it all behind. Its not like SS has a tracking device on her and is going to follow her around in case she has more kids. I imagine her giving an alias to a hospital, having a kid and just flying under the radar. IMO its a real risk. Follow the shitty boyfriends, follow the shitty friends. Another horrid childhood in the making.

Even if SS did find out and take the child. They would have to prove current risk to that child. If she says she has had rehabilitation or counselling or whatever and they can't prove current risk - on what basis would a court keep the next one?

The whole set up is to favor the parents rights and freedoms, instead of for justice and the protection of children.

Florencefortea · 09/10/2013 17:28

I don't know anything about the neighbour sadly but yes I owe them my life. I suspect there were lot of problems that neighbours must have been aware of. We lived in a flat so assume walls were quite thin.
They - the police found me locked alone in the bathroom in the dark with broken ribs and a broken arm. What she was doing to my younger sibling is unspeakable. She continued to hold power over us convinced herself we would be returned to her and forced me live without being adopted until I was much older.

tinyturtletim · 09/10/2013 18:15

I read in the DM today (sorry!!) That she has gained weight and is 22st unrecognisable from what she was before

The mothet of the father of her other children has spoken out to say she is disgusted they are letting her out now.

It does insinuate that them children are living with their father so maybe not in care.

Also mentions on her being on parole for life

pigletmania · 09/10/2013 20:02

Oh Florence, thank you for sharing your extremely sad story, you are incredibly brave and inspirational person.

missfliss · 09/10/2013 20:31

Florence, my heart goes out to the young you and your siblings. I'm so happy you have beautiful children of your own to care for now xxx

Lilka · 09/10/2013 20:35

Thank you for sharing your story Florence. I'm so happy to hear you have children and an adoptive family. It's great to hear from people who have done so well despite such awful beginnings.

(I'm kind of the flip side of the coin, I'm adoptive mum to three, two of whom were removed from very abusive situations, and my eldest, who has beeen through enormous challenges, is now generally happy and loves being mum to her two little girls :) )