..to think that it would have been much better to teach me how to cook, clean and do laundry

[idiuntno57]

...rather than get a degree and postgraduate qualifications to pursue a career.

Because as soon as you have more than a couple of kids so many compromises need to be made that sustaining the family/career balance properly whilst remaining sane is almost impossible.

This isn't a man versus women debate (though usually things do default around gender lines) but a what's the point of creating aspirations which aren't sustainable in the real world?

Now if all I knew were home making skills then perhaps I'd feel less frustrated sometimes.

NB I realise that if I'd learnt more about contraception I might not be having this 'what's it all about' wobble

But idiunt society wants you to try to have it all, constantly striving and failing - feeling shit about yourself means you are an easier target for marketing and therefore spend more on an empty vessel or trinket to temporarily take the emptiness away. The protestant work ethic is there to keep you firmly in your place.

Where would capitalism be if we were all happy with what we've got?

I think that if your earning power is the same as your DH then either of you could work FT when the kids are small. I don't think the job market exists for both partners to have a PT job unless they are lucky.

But if we are likelY to work- even graduates who start later- from say 25 to 67 then that is 42 years, folks. Lets say 40. Of which 10 to 15 depending on numbers of DC you will have young DC. Even at the most generous end of that, there are 25 years with no, or with big children. More than half your working life. And quite likely 15 to 20 years of that are after your career break, so you are older and wiser and can make it count more.

Do both - I do. I'm just doing what my mother (also a graduate) did before me only I am a much better cook

It's not having domestic skills that helps you run a house, it's the organisational process behind it (flylady, anyone?!)and schools need to be delivering this as a whole package to all their pupils because in many cases, families have never mastered it themselves so children won't pick this stuff up at home

Simply knowing how to boil an egg or put a wash on is of no real consequence. It's how to efficently put it all together so you get as much done in as little time as possible and keep a house ticking over.

The problem is that many men now are happy to do the washing, cook the tea, etc. but they don't think about the managerial aspects of the whole domestic package and that gets left to women and thats when it gets overwhelming.

So true, bev. It's taking the initiative that is so often sadly missing. DH is good at it now, but it's taken a while.....

YABU. I can cook, clean and do laundry - its really not that hard. But as a single parent it is my degree and consultancy skills that bring in the income to keep us all - and to pay a housekeeper to do some of the above whilst I work.

And I have 2 teenage DC who live with me, 3 dogs and a couple of horses to look after.

Not sane anymore though

YABU. It takes all of 10 minutes to figure out how a recipe book, mop and washing machine work.

possibly coupon but that wasn't really what I was saying.

more what's it all for than how do you do it as it were.

Learning to do laundry and cleaning? Well, that would be a few hours of your life accounted for.

And of course this issue is a "man/woman thing." I have never, ever witnessed a man sorrowfully shaking his head, lamenting over not being able to "have it all."

Women most certainly can have successful careers while raising young children. I would certainly like to see more societal support for families, but I categorically reject the notion that it is impossible to combine career and family.

Bev has got it spot on "It's how to efficiently put it all together so you get as much done in as little time as possible and keep a house ticking over."

This thread highlights a really crucial issue imo.

I have 2 DC and we share 50/50- the whole "Mum" does everything is an artificial construct.
If he has arms then your DH is perfectly capable of running a household( or sharing it)but women are told that men are useless therefore you must run yourself into the ground doing "it all" .Its the ultimate in dual sexism - men are useless, so women do all the household tasks .
You chose to have 4 DC (presumably) and its obvious they need care. Having a vagina doesn't mean you and only you are responsible for their care and upbringing.

[bakingaddict Tue 08-Oct-13 16:06:30 On other threads of this ilk, i'm genuinely shocked by the high percentage of woman with such low expectations of the men in their lives with regards to housework and childcare]

the problem is the majority of men, my DH included, seem to be unable to run a home and provide childcare to the same standard as us women can.

We had a spell when I went out to work FT and DH stayed at home for 2 years as he was made redundant. He did some housework and looked after DC, of course, but it was a far cry from what I would do when I am at home. Multitasking does not come naturally to him, same as any man. He cannot cook, keep an eye on the laundry, read a book with DS while generally tidying up, all at the same time. Men are inherently incapable of doing this, and this is the nature of housework and childcare. That is why women step in, simply because they are much much better at it. If my DH was as good as me in the home domain, I will be more than happy to delegate and go out to work and forge a career. However, this is not how things are...

Of course, a lot of it is training and practice, but gender does play a role - same argument applies as to why most nurses are women and most electricians are men. We are best suited to different things. It is just the society sees going out to work as valuable and looking after your family as not so valuable, sadly.

"He did some housework and looked after DC, of course, but it was a far cry from what I would do when I am at home. Multitasking does not come naturally to him, same as any man. He cannot cook, keep an eye on the laundry, read a book with DS while generally tidying up, all at the same time. Men are inherently incapable of doing this, and this is the nature of housework and childcare. That is why women step in, simply because they are much much better at it."
I don't know whether this applies to all couples but it's certainly the case for us. DH always contributes and shares the work when at home so it's never been the case that I've been doing housework/childcare while he has his feet up but I have had a few long spells of illness where he's had to do the bulk of it and I hate it as he just isn't as good at the whole organisational/multitasking aspect and inevitably doesn't do it as well as I would like.

I've found that given a chance and lots of practice dh has got much better. However, what is really hard is sharing everything, rather than having defined 'jobs'. It takes much more planning, which we really don't have any time for, and means time spent together is a constant stream of
Transmitting and receiving practical info (what's the latest request from school for which day, things to be added to the shopping list, planning meals round after school activities whilst making sure we don't cook the same 2 days running because we forgot the other cooked it yesterday when we weren't there, remembering to post birthday cards and presents in time etc etc). It is v hard to job share the stay at home parent role. We each have to accept that the other has their own way of doing things too -not right or wrong, just different but can be fucking annoying at times for us both

OP a brilliant, brilliant book that I really recommend to you on this subject is 'Home comforts; the art and science of keeping house' by Cheryl Mendelson. The author is a lawyer and professor who discusses the philosopy of housekeeping and the practicalities too. It's one of those books that I come back to repeatedly over the SAHM and WOHM years when I'm pondering this stuff.

agree with badlywrittenpoem above

I do agree with Summerworld that the value placed by society on caring for a family is bafflingly low.

beveridge so true. My dh will do anything when asked, but never of his own volition. It wears you down and I end up doing most stuff myself rather than have to spell everything out.

I can't understand why looking after your family and home is so underrated either, its one of the most important things we'll ever do (even if it sucks the life out of us sometimes).

With DH it is certainly true with multitasking. And many child-based tasks, I am simply better at or find quicker/easier. But we both work full time and find a way to share tasks 50/50. DH is better at washing up, laundry, gardening and ironing. I don't think it's impossible to have a career and kids if you have the right partner.

"the problem is the majority of men, my DH included, seem to be unable to run a home and provide childcare to the same standard as us women can.

Of course, a lot of it is training and practice, but gender does play a role - same argument applies as to why most nurses are women and most electricians are men. We are best suited to different things."

I completely disagree with this assessment. Do you really think that women become nurses and men become electricians because of inherent differences between the sexes? I think that is utter nonsense. There are all sorts of reasons that professions have become overwhelmingly populated by either men or women, but these reasons have to do with societal expectations, assumptions, history, traditions, and opportunities. There is no such thing as an "electrician gene."

I also think you are selling men short if you really believe that the majority of them are unable to provide childcare and organize a household as well as women. No one is born knowing how to wash dishes or plan a week's worth of meals. But virtually anyone can learn how. Having lady parts doesn't make someone better at caring for children or doing the laundry.

sigh....

I have a degree, postgrad etc plus can cook/clean sew so disagree. These skills not mutually exclusive.

Personally I think it is about finding a work life balance that suits the individual and makes you mostly happy. This applies to male/female equally. Not always possible to have the balance of what you exactly want but I guess you should try to work towards being happy.

I agree with others who have said that it's actually about someone's ability to be organised.

I am a single Mum, with a pretty responsible role. National Manager with a team of 50 based all around the UK. I have an 8 year old son and virtually no support from my ex-H during the week or family. I just have to be super organised. It is hard at times, but I just have to constantly plan and be ahead of the game.

My son goes to a child minder, I pay to have my ironing and gardening done, but I keep my house clean and organised, washing is up to date and most nights we have a home cooked meal.

I spend time with my son in the early evenings and we eat together, play games, chat and I listen to him read. When he has gone to bed, I get the blackberry out and answer e-mails and do any cleaning that needs doing. I also organise any journeys I need to do for the following week and book train tickets etc. Every other weekend, when my son is with me, we do all the things he wants to do - football, cinema, cycling etc and the weekend between when he is with his Dad, I do loads of cooking and freeze stuff for meals in the week.

I rarely sit down before 10pm at night, but I wouldn't have my life any other way. I love my son to bits and I also love my job.

I am sure my life would be more stressful with a husband lol. Being on my own means things get done my way and I don't have to organise yet another person.

I honestly do love my life and feel very thankful every day for my wonderful son and job. I do believe women can have it all.

Yes because those of us with degree's don't know how to, or can't be bothered doing any of those things