..to think that it would have been much better to teach me how to cook, clean and do laundry

[idiuntno57]

...rather than get a degree and postgraduate qualifications to pursue a career.

Because as soon as you have more than a couple of kids so many compromises need to be made that sustaining the family/career balance properly whilst remaining sane is almost impossible.

This isn't a man versus women debate (though usually things do default around gender lines) but a what's the point of creating aspirations which aren't sustainable in the real world?

Now if all I knew were home making skills then perhaps I'd feel less frustrated sometimes.

NB I realise that if I'd learnt more about contraception I might not be having this 'what's it all about' wobble

my mum was so determined that I would go to college and have a career that she refused to teach me how to do anything domestic. She drummed it into me that I should never need to ask a man for money and be independent.

I have had a great education and a fab career that I love (and have never taken a penny off my DH as it's so ingrained in me by my upbringing, he would happily hand it over if I would accept it!) - but I have found the domestic side of parenthood a very steep learning curve! I have had to teach myself to cook, read numerous mumsnet good housekeeping threads on running a house etc.

I think its a shame that a lot of my generation were brought up to think these things were a bit menial and beneath us. We all have to do it (men too) and it would be a whole lot easier if we learnt it at school/in childhood.

My DC's are being trained early!!

You can have an excellent career, a happy clean home, a great relationship and happy, well cared for kids.

Just not all at once.

All those regretting your earning years and feeling trapped, take the long view. I spent 12 years either SAHM or working PT. I only went FT once my eldest was at secondary school, and even then, I had a massive career change so I got rid of the commute. Now, ten years on, nobody really notices that I am a bit older than others in similar role and there is still bloody years before I can retire

I wouldn't admit it in RL, but I sometimes feel like you do. Like things would be simpler if I didn't have to work and achieve on top of everything else. I was a very bright child and there's been a lot of pressure on me since I was young to fulfill my potential, to be the best in what I'm doing, to never take the easy option, to get 'that' career. I feel like you do sometimes when I'm exhausted and have no idea when I'm going to have enough time at home to get a wash on and put it out to dry, when I know the only person who'll suffer if I don't get this paper written is me, because I can't delegate to anyone else.

I feel ashamed to feel like this, especially when I have had such a fantastic education, so many opportunities. I wholeheartedly consider myself a feminist and feel like the thoughts I get in my most exhausted moments are a slap in the face to the women who fought so hard for our right to learn and to work.

I agree that being taught how to do these things at a youngish age is a valuable life skill, but not that it would be better than a good education. Children of both sexes should grow up with both.

It stands to reason that if you've been helping your parents around the house ever since you can remember, when you leave home and suddenly have to look after yourself, you're not on a steep learning curve.

My parents went one step further and also taught me how to meal plan, budget and balance a cheque book.

I need to learn how to garden. I walk past some beautifully kept, but simple looking gardens on my walks, and my front lawn is a dumping ground for scootersm bins, and skates. I just looks unkept. housework I can do, DIY I can do, I can put together flatpack furniture like a pro. I can cook.

but I suck at gardening.

profundo there is nothing wrong with prioritisation for a few years. You can always get back to your highly skilled career at 45 to 50 years old. It will give you something to do when the dc grow up, and stop you sobbing silently in their empty bedrooms :)

misdee meh, you can learn. Tis easy. Often being rubbish at something comes down to being not interested enough to pay attention and/or do the detailed, slow, unglamorous stuff. The rest will be in a book somewhere.

I've had to teach myself a few things about keeping a tidy house and how to keep everything ticking over, because I don't really come from a tidy family. And I will probably be doing a lot more day-to-day chores once I start mat leave, which I'm only sort-of embracing and mostly dreading.

But I'm not sure I would feel less bored or more content had I avoided a post-grad degree and almost 10 years of professional work. I don't think I'd find any bliss in not knowing better. A good friend of mine had kids at a younger age, before she got her career off the ground. She was just as bored and frustrated with the day-to-day tedium, which usually fell to her whether her DH was working or not. Now that her third and last child is ~18 months, she's gotten a lot more used to the demands of her house and is now better able to direct her energy outside it.

I do think (dream, anyway) that I might try getting my kids doing regular chores ASAP, whether there is a parent home eventually or not. I have this delusion that making them responsible for the state of common rooms might encourage them to keep them cleaner in the first place.

Ummm maybe i'm some kind of domestic genius but those things don't need to be taught. They are really easy. Squirt that on that and wipe it. Put those in that machine and close the door and press a button. Buy a book then buy some food and follow the instructions. 1 day at school tops i reckon (I never lifted a finger at home but managed to move out at 16 and look after myself - if you've ever watched tv and seen adverts you can see how things are done. Also i think i'd be a bit cross if my dc spent time at school 'learning' that). Freeing up the rest of your time to learn about more interesting things, which may or may not allow you to earn more. But the knowledge is the joy in itself. That's why i went to uni anyway. I knew there was no career for me afterwards, i just loved the subject, and still do.

It's shit to feel the way you do OP. But give yourself a break, no one can do everything. This is the illusion of 'having it all'. It is yet another chain that binds us. Feminism was about having choices, not insisting we all work and do everything and run ourselves into the ground. I hope you feel better about it. Perhaps read some Seneca - His writing always makes me feel better about things. :)

Surely you can teach yourself these things? It's hardly difficult is it?

I've solved this one. Kept the career and hired 'staff'. Cleaner, gardener, childminder (when I needed one) and myriad other trades to keep the show on the road. I have no partner so there's no-one else to fall back on. Downton Abbey, suburban style.

TheAwfulDaughter - who looked after you when your DM was at work and you weren't old enough to be left alone?

The worst phrase in the world is "having it all". It's just about trying to have a life that works pretty well for you and the family.

I don't lack domestic skills, there are just some jobs I don't like doing. If I hadn't been educated I would still hate those things, I just wouldn't be able to analyse why. And I wouldn't be able to get a job where I can afford a cleaner to help out.

My mother taught me how to cook, my grandmother taught me how to sew, various nannies have shown me in my adulthood how to do some fab shortcuts to clean with excellent results. I have help in the house, but if I oh so desperately needed to, then I could do all of those things to a very high standard. I still enrol myself on seasonal cooking courses to learn new skills. I am a much less stressed person knowing that should the need arise, I can cope. Why don't you enrol on some adult education classes and teach yourself how to sew, or cookery lessons? You'll be surprised how much you use these kind of skills once you have them. The laundry bit flummoxes me, put in machine, put in dryer, iron? No?

Multiply the cost of that by 4 as in the OP's situation and for anyone on a typical salary it becomes prohibitive.

I work full-time, always have done. Took 8 weeks mat leave. Am a single parent of 2. No family and reliant totally on professional childcare.

I struggled with the cost and the amount of time off I needed to cover childcare when nursery/CM couldn't take them (due to OFSTED rules about 48 hours post sickness and refusal for heavy colds, etc) meant I'd have lost my job in many fields. I can work from home if need be so it wasn't too bad.

You need a good, largely free support network or a job that will cover paid-for help. Most people would never earn enough to cover childcare for 4 children with 2 under school age.

So I think unless you're a high flyer or have a hands-on mum for example, you can't have a large family and a career.

Most of us can do cleaning. Where I really went wrong is not learning how to cook brilliantly. I see men drooling over women who can cook wonderful meals.

I know, I know, very sexist but I wish I had done a course...

Multiply the cost of that by 4 as in the OP's situation and for anyone on a typical salary it becomes prohibitive. To be fair he OP did make the choice to have four children. Have less children and it is less prohibitive.

Beastofburden, I don't even have DCs yet! I just struggle to keep on top of keeping the house clean, feeding myself, spending time with my partner and family while keeping up with all my responsibilities at work. But thank you for your kind words, they're much appreciated.

And I would argue that Mrs Koala is right to say feminism is about choice - certainly the way we understand it now, in the light of current theory and society. TheAwfulDaughter, your DM's achievements are admirable, unquestionably, but there is no one template for how a woman, single mother or otherwise, should be. There are a million factors which influence the differences in how one woman copes with a situation and another does.

There is still so much demonisation of women at work in social and media discourse today - if you're a SAHM, you're setting your daughters a bad example and are not living up to your potential; if you work and send your children to daycare, you're not doing your duty as a mother and hence a woman; if you've not had children or married yet, you're a selfish, career-obsessed person.

Obviously, most of us on here (I hope) don't subscribe to these views. But they niggle at us, they gnaw at our self-esteem and sometimes fill us with doubt. The best thing we can do is support and try to understand each other's diverse choices, needs and desires.

So do a course, handcream. Or if you can't get childcare then get a set of DVDs, a few recipe books and some youtube videos and just practice. You may never have a brilliant intuitive palate to produce your own recipes and flavour combinations, or the manual dexterity to be a fabulous cake decorator, but there's absolutely nothing stopping you becoming a bloody good cook.

I like cooking. I find it relaxing. The fact that I find chopping things up with a very sharp knife to be relaxing sometimes alarms me. I rarely cook though because I do a massive batch cook of various dishes once a month to save time throughout the rest of the month.

I make an exception for guests, etc. Also, DP is a superior cook so usually cooks when he's around. I find him cooking in my kitchen very sensual.

I don't think it is a feminist act Awful. But i don't think working long hours and doing everything else is feminist either. I also don't think hiring female childcare or farming domestic tasks out to women is particularly feminist. And i disagree with you about the choices thing as well. I think that is a large part of what would make women equal. Doing everything wont. Obviously our upbringings have affected our opinions. My mum had a career growing up and i had an utterly miserable childhood because of it. But neither mine or your experience should be used as 'the reality'. A large amount of women say they struggle with this, so anecdotal 'well my mum managed it' is not very helpful or supportive. Feminism is also about sisterhood too.

Kelly - yes I agree. The choice to have 4 children was obviously one that was going to impact on career and earning potential. There is still an argument to be had about equality though. There are lots of fathers of four out there in full-time jobs who don't struggle to have it all, simply because the main burden of childcare and domestic tasks isn't expected of them.