..to think that it would have been much better to teach me how to cook, clean and do laundry

[idiuntno57]

...rather than get a degree and postgraduate qualifications to pursue a career.

Because as soon as you have more than a couple of kids so many compromises need to be made that sustaining the family/career balance properly whilst remaining sane is almost impossible.

This isn't a man versus women debate (though usually things do default around gender lines) but a what's the point of creating aspirations which aren't sustainable in the real world?

Now if all I knew were home making skills then perhaps I'd feel less frustrated sometimes.

NB I realise that if I'd learnt more about contraception I might not be having this 'what's it all about' wobble

If I hadn't done my degree then I wouldn't have the profession that I do, which means I am able to afford to work PT and have, imo, the best of both worlds. The house is not a show home but it's fine, we're all fed, clean and happy.

But yes, if we have 4/5/6 DC then I too would be frazzled no doubt. As would my DH. My DM had 5 of us and a career though and swears that it got easier with every DC!

Feminism is also about sisterhood too - agree, MrsKoala.

It's, in many ways, about not judging ourselves and each other for how we run our lives. I know a few posters are saying get the washing done, simple as that, but what if you're not home until late? And would need to get up in the middle of the night to take it out and hang it up to dry? For me, that's not ideal, as work is tremendously hard right now, and I suffer from an anxiety disorder which worsens hugely if I don't get enough sleep. Either that or put it on in the morning and leave it in the machine all day, letting it go musty and creating a fire hazard? I do my washing in a few batches on a Sunday. I cook a big pot of food on Sunday and freeze it for the week. And then I go for a fucking big nap because I'm knackered!

All womens' realities are different. We need to respect that.

There are lots of fathers of four out there in full-time jobs who don't struggle to have it all, simply because the main burden of childcare and domestic tasks isn't expected of them. Totally agree with you. Mens careers are unaffected by becoming a parent in the majority of cases.

But that is the choice of the couple Kelly - most men could do their jobs PT if they wanted to, with obvious exceptions. In my job there is a clear, unambiguous route to apply for PT work which is open to men and women equally. How many men actually work PT? Almost none.

I do think it's the size of the famliy that's limiting, not the having a family. I know a few families with 3+ DCs where the woman has a fabulous career and having DCs have in no way negatively impacted on their careers, however, in one case the DH is a SAHP, another where the DH doesn't have a very 'high powered' career, so he can be home for the 5:30pm nursery pick up so she works the long hours, and another where the DW earns a 6 figure salary where the first figure isn't a 1 - so can pay for a full time nanny, cleaners and all the staff.

If you are going to have that many DCs, it's going to negatively effect one of your careers, if not yours, then it has to be your DH's, or you need to be rich. You also have to be happy to be in the office and not at home with all your lovely babies (which if you've decided you want a large family, it's probably because you like being around small children!). What is managable with 1 DC, becomes a balancing act for 2, and a boarderline impossible juggling act with more.

It's also not possible to 'have it all' as in, being an 'at home' mum and having a great career (you cna't be in 2 places at once). It's generally one or the other, and if you have more than 2 DCs the chances of being in work paying and being logisically possible really deminish.

But that is the choice of the couple Kelly - most men could do their jobs PT if they wanted to, with obvious exceptions. In my job there is a clear, unambiguous route to apply for PT work which is open to men and women equally. How many men actually work PT? Almost none. Yes, that's true. I'm unsure what point we are in disagreement over.

Apart from anything else, 4 DCs can use up your entire holiday allowance with merry games of Tag Team Chickenpox, and Tag Team Norovirus..

Well I'm just wondering how many of those (on this thread or elsewhere) feeling frazzled/overworked/unfulfilled/resentful have discussed or even considered their DHs going PT or SAH?

Oh you are all so young . Of course you can have 3DC and a good career. Just not while they are little. But by the time they are in secondary school? If you are able to avoid a long commute and working away from home, and can be back by 6 pm, there's only a couple of hours plus holidays and half terms to cover. Honestly, that is not hard to do.

Ironically, the key to this is your education. When you go back (a) you need a brand, like being a lawyer or something, and (b) you need your hourly rate to be high and your work to be holy skilled, irreplaceable brain work with professional judgement. Then if you have to work from home to cover childcare glitches, nobody cares as long as you do the work .

I am not sure that at any point I said I was bad at cooking, cleaning et al. Just that I didn't get much pleasure out of it and would I be more content if a) I learnt how to do them really well and/or b) I hadn't had a career.

Current age range of my DC's is 4-8yrs so at the moment it is very intense. I feel encouraged by beastof's post. Who knows I may feel very different when they are 14- 18yrs

For the moment I keep my brain alive with mumsnet and engaging in lively debate on AIBU

The problem I see is that a lot of women don't expect men to do a full share of housework and childcare for whatever reason, when we get over the attitude that as a mother all housework and childcare is automatically our responsibility and stop feeling guilty or demonising woman for choosing other options like live in nannies etc maybe then we can forge ahead.

On other threads of this ilk, i'm genuinely shocked by the high percentage of woman with such low expectations of the men in their lives with regards to housework and childcare

Haven't read the thread but
No
No-one ever taught me how to cook, clean and do laundry. I learnt it all by meself. It ain't rocket science.

I did my degree and my masters because I'm reasonably intelligent and wanted to get myself into horrendous debt (ok that last bit isn't true, its just what happened)

I don't find it impossible to remain sane at all. I have a decently paid job because I did the masters degree. It's not as much as I could have been earning had I not had children, buts its better than average.
I have a decently balanced life because I have an understanding employer who agreed that part-time would be best for my circumstances. I'm very happy with this scenario.

I get frustrated because there aren't enough hours in the day to do everything I want to do, but I can't for the life of me understand why frustration would stem from lack of homemaking skills!

Whats the point in creating aspirations? Presumably because its what drives us. I consider myself to be very lucky that I was always be encouraged to follow a path that suited my skills. Encouragement gives hope. I don't happen to think my life is bad, in fact quite the opposite - but if someone had said to me at 16 'oh don't do that degree or the masters because at 39 you'll be working in some average software house in an uninspiring job on a slightly higher than average salary and spending the rest of your time picking up small childrens smelly gear and breaking up their fights' it may well have sounded bad to my ears, yes. Point is though, its not. I've chosen to do that. I'm happy with my choice. And I'm happy that I got myself educated. And I'm happy that I got to spend many years being a daft drunk student and then being a daft drunk IT consultant until I finally settled down to a life where one glass of red does me in LOL. Its about much more than career aspirations it really is.

VinegarDrinker I'm a lone parent, so no choice unfortunately, but I do know one couple where the man is a SAHD which works just as well and is financially viable because the woman is the higher earner. The sad thing is that he has been judged by people stuck in the dark ages who feel that he is somehow not being the 'provider' and is less of a man in some ways. It's these antiquated notions that don't help more equality in raising children.

Well idunt at your stage I was full time SAHM and my life was entirely different. I hadn't even started on my current career in which I am senior and quite successful enough .

The is no reason to do it all now. My DC are 21, 19 and 17 and there are still far more years than I care to think about of working life ahead of me.

YANBU. There is much much housework to be done if there are people around the house all day.

bakingaddict I agree. The trouble is that while legislation has moved forwards significantly to improve women's rights, socially we have some way to go. If you look at the genderisation of toys, for example, it is worse than it was 20 years ago and strongly pushes the caring role for girls and the construction role for men. The overwhelming female dominance present in cleaning products and baby products has always been there and has to some extent improved, but is still dreadfully sexist. The increasing sexualisation of clothing for girls is a new and more worrying trend, but combined it all serves to entrench traditional gender roles.

Personally, I think it's high time successive governments stopped focusing on getting women into the workplace and started thinking about getting men into the domestic space.

Sorry if it didn't make sense Awful (very early here and i'm half asleep). What i meant was it is still establishing it as womens work. Particularly domestic chores seem poor womens work (particularly where i live).

I do agree with you about a lot of things, the not seeing childcare and cleaning as our domain and affordable wrap around care are essential for equality. Sadly it doesn't stack up financially. So a lot of women are trapped in a cycle. Feminism also releases men. My DH's job is more important than mine because we couldn't pay the bills without it. But this means he is constantly under pressure to provide. With us there can be no sharing of the tasks and i cannot go back to work. Which pisses me off. But bad choices along the way, which i was essentially pushed into because of my gender and class and too young to realise, have left me in this situation.

Likewise, seeing my mum work long hours then send me off for the weekend so she could catch up on housework and cooking, has made me formulate my choices. Being an only child on top of this meant i had a very lonely childhood and would personally rather not have children if i was faced with her decisions or had her attitude. But she selfishly wanted 'it all' and i suffered.

Beastof - i feel sad at your post. If that's what it takes then many women are fucked. I know few who have the things you describe or the ability/opportunity to achieve them.

koala I was mainly answering the OP whose question was about whether her high levels of education had been wasted.

If we want to think about other women, I often see a pattern where they do their own childcare until the kids are at secondary school, because of the cost of childcare. Having the DH do it may make sense if the women can earn more than the DH, but that depends on their skills and training.

Yes and no - you are not being unreasonable to think that you should have been taught those skills as they are useful to have but there is no reason why they should have been taught instead of other things as the two are not mutually exclusive so it is not an either or.

You also haven't made it clear whether you are suggesting that you should have been taught those things because you are female. Again it is reasonable to say that it would have been better for you to have been taught those skills than not but not specifically because you are female - everyone should be taught those skills as they are useful for everyone and are not gender specific.

Don't people learn how to do these things at Uni anyway?

Don't people learn how to do these things at Uni anyway? No I don't think I cleaned my room in my halls of residence or did more than open a jar of pesto and cook a bit of pasta! I think bar the cooking these are all skills we all should have way before uni.

Awful, I'm sorry, but I disagree with this:

But it isn't about sisterhood? It's about equality. There are plenty of women who don't want that, and I don't feel a sisterly affinity with them apart from sorry that they have been brainwashed.

There can only be equality if we, as women, see each other as equals. Positioning other women as Other along a negative spectrum of difference means you don't see them as equal. We don't need to identify with or approve of their choices, but we do need to make an effort to respect, understand and explore why they've made those choices.

Of course it's unjust that so many women do the lion's share of housework (in partnerships, because if they're on their own their situation is different) but we need to question why this still happens by listening to and attempting to understand each other's beliefs and choices.

i absolutely don't think i should have been taught this because I am female. But perhaps I should have been told you can never really have it all with a large family and it would be naive to think so.

I probably wouldn't have listened.

I think a lot of us made choices when younger that were obviously going to fail to work out but youthful naive optimism prevented us from seeing that. I can empathise with that iduntno.

And, to be fair, every now and then, someone comes along who has done something considered extraordinary precisely because they did dare to think they could when other people would have said, "don't be so silly."

People like that are very annoying.