If we are all in this together, what cuts have the rich suffered?

[Grennie]

I know mumsnetters seem to be better off than average. So just want to point out that in 2012 the mean national average wage is £29,900. The median was £20,000. And only 10% of people earned £50,500 or above.

So what cuts have this 10% of people suffered?

beastofburden- I'm v much with you on your last two posts.

There is certainly a lot of legal tax avoidance going on amongst the super rich individuals and corporations. The government need to close all those loopholes but, surprisingly enough, no government is interested in doing this.

The only way to do it is to have an international agreement on it. Because these small handful of people are so rich that they can just move assets, reregister companies in more favourable locations and so on.

The bottom line for me is that the overall tax-take should be as low as possible while still providing all essential services, and providing a decent standard of living for those who are unable to earn their own (elderly, disabled, long-term sick etc).
The lower the tax burden the less people/companies will make efforts to avoid paying.

so beastofburden - the living wage - presumably you would vary this depending on where you lived and the local cost of living? Someone in the welsh values on say £20k is likely to have a higher standard of living than say someone in london on £50k. so you can't just assume that someone is richer/poorer/does or doesn't have a living wage just because of their income

Distribution of wealth and the gap
Not a DM link.

£50-100k hardly constitues rich, often there is only one earner in the household supporting a SAHP and DCs. They are still not entitled to any 'extras' so why should they have anything else cut. The last £8k is taxed at 40% also.

Obviously it is a good wage which I am sure no one will dispute but sometimes higher earners in fact earn a much lower hourly wage due to the long hours required. My dad works 4 x 12 hour shifts (on a flat wage) so he earns less an hour than someone on the same wage working 9-5.

Bit late back, but how does having a combined income (two earners) of £33,000 makes us 'above average' earners if the average wage for one person is £29,900?

dreamingof - I think your point is very important. In Scotland I knew people who worked in HE Administration on a salary of circa 40k. Straightforward 9-5 job, no requirement to work late hours/weekends and great lifestyle as cost of living here is relatively low. That salary in London would mean a much different life and to have an equivalent lifestyle one would have to make at least 80k -- but MNers would probably call the person in London filthy rich.

This is one of the issues with standardized pay across public sector, education etc. London weighting is a drop in the ocean and means very very little to the 'bottom line'.

Sorry beastofburden just reread back I am full time on £23,000 and dh is p/t on £10,000 - it is really hard to manage as we have a mortgage, pesky growing children etc.

Sorry eetracey as I didnt mean to make it about you :)

It's not a big family wage. It isn't enough. We lived on the equivalent when I was SAHM with 3 DC and I remember the lentils very well

What I was wondering, is where the tipping point is in the system- if the average wage is so low, do we expect people on the average to be contributing more than they receive? if not, what is the leverage on the very rich people and how big a risk does that pose? I expect if anyone who works at the Treasury is here they could just tell me.

dreaming- SFAIK there are only 2 rates proposed- London and Everywhere Else. Which certainly would make no sense where I live. But the living wage is quite low, so we are talking about people on £12k a year, not £50k.

There was a kerfuffle recently when the government suggested different salaries for teachers etc based on location. We are used to the London Weighting but not to anything else. I think it didnt work out- but clearly, if yuo can get a job on a national pay scale in a part of the country with low housing costs, you are in a fortunate position relative to your colleague who is doing the same job in the South East.

I don't think people appreciate how hard the vast majority of low paid people work. Plenty of low paid jobs demand long hours, spending lots of time away from your family, stressful situations, continuous monitoring and assessment. Of course people in that situation don't even have the option of 'downsizing' or cutting their hours, because they need all the hours they can just to scrape by financially.

This myth that the only people who really work hard and deserve their salaries are the high earners is laughable.

"Passing exams, getting into competitive vocational university courses, more exams, holding down jobs while studying, facing up to the standards required in high level jobs on a daily basis - dontchaknow that doing all this and not giving even more of your salary away than you already do in tax makes you BAD!!!"

LessMissAbs I've done all that shit, and to be honest, it was easy. The periods where I worked long hours in demanding low paid jobs were far more stressful.

If Dh was full time and I was 37 instead of 30 hours we would be on around £40,000 which I think would be fine! Moral - don't work in the charity or public sectors

headsdown - all the higher earners i know have done low paid jobs when the were younger to fund school/education/when they first get started and earn peanuts. Yes some low paid jobs may demand long hours, but all the ones i know of get paid overtime.

I'm sure some low paid jobs are more stressful than higher paid jobs, but not in the case of any of the people i know. if there's a problem it often just gets escalated up to the boss to sort out.

I do and so does DH! It is very depressing to read what the average salary is in my profession

heads Plenty of low paid jobs demand long hours, spending lots of time away from your family, stressful situations, continuous monitoring and assessment.

what type of jobs?

Yep, lots of high earners have done some low paid work while in education. I'd think it would give people an appreciation of how hard some low paid jobs are. Still, it's not the same as doing long hours week in, week out, for long periods of time - and seeing no reasonable prospect of your prospects changing for the better. That's part of the stress.

I'm afraid the days of well paid overtime are long gone in most low paid sectors. Adjustments for unsociable hours are evaporating too.

And while low paid staff may be able to escalate problems up the chain, it's usually the case that this is heavily frowned on, and it's the customer or client facing low paid worker who has to bear the brunt of the other person's anger (ie. do all the emotional labour, and yet have no authority to resolve the situation - lack of authority/autonomy is stressful too)

Obviously not all low paid jobs are demanding and stressful. But not all well paid jobs are demanding and stressful. Not by a long way.

My experience has been that as my wages increased the level of autonomy, assistance and rewards I received too. Making for an altogether more pleasant working day.

What do you mean, what kind of jobs? Plenty of low paid jobs. Almost any low paid job where you must work long hours because the wages are so low that you can't afford to do otherwise.

I think people are paid on the whole not by how nasty the job is, but on the level of skill and judgement that they contribute. With the exception of antisocial hours supplements and danger money, I don't think there is a direct correlation either way between pay and stress. The type of stress will obviously be different. It is stressful being cannon fodder in a call centre and it is quite differently stressful telling a parent that their child will not survive their current illness.

Bt the number of highly paid jobs which are money for old rope is sadly small .

Yeah, I agree. Jobs are not paid according to how stressful/difficult the job actually is. Though I'm not entirely confident that they're always paid according to the level of skill and judgement people have either.....

I'm just trying to say that lots and lots of poor people work bloody hard for their money too. People who earn well can't realistically claim that they work much harder (and deserve their money more). They're just in a better position in the job market than others. It's not a moral issue, or a test of character.

It is not true that in all lower paid jobs you can simply pass difficulties up to management. Managing a shop for example is low paid, but you are the one in charge. Or charity shop managers - paid where I live about £10,000 pa, they have a lot of responsibility for low pay.

heads - I meant an example of:

Plenty of low paid jobs demand long hours, spending lots of time away from your family, stressful situations, continuous monitoring and assessment.

grennie my DM is a charity shop manager (aged 76) and she's not paid at all. She does moan at lot at me about the stress, though.

Can you not think of an example yourself?

Ok. Someone I know works in a call centre. The shift pattern calls for 10 hour shifts, which can be from 8-4, 12-8, 3-11, three days on, one day off, two days on, two days off. Her working hours, and days off, change from week to week. She has no say on her scheduled days off, start times, end times, or breaks. Her company offers zero flexibility on any of this. Holidays are booked through a company wide (national) system, twelve weeks in advance. She is very often unable to book the holidays she needs and has lost holidays as a result, since her contract does not allow holidays to accrue or be paid in lieu. She is not entitled to bank holidays either, and does not get paid overtime for working them. Additional hours are available, which she works, but they do not attract a premium.

Her job involves taking complains from members of the public, and she is supposed to cross-sell and up-sell while she does so. As the voice of the company, she has people channel their anger and rage at her all day, every day. Which is stressful. She also frequently has to deal with difficult situations such as taking calls from bereaved customers, people in financial crisis, customers who clearly require additional assistance and so on. She also has very little control over how she is able to resolve their complaints. Escalating to a manager is possible, in theory, but many managers simply ignore requests for help. If she transfers too many calls, or escalates them elsewhere, she will be disciplined for missing her targets for call resolution.

She is monitored by software every minute she is at work and has to log her toilet breaks. If her adherence dips below 95% she will receive a verbal warning, and, if again, disciplined. Her performance on the phone is also continually monitored and spot-checked. There are no 'off' moments on the job.

She is paid £6.15 per hour.

but life and work does involve stress:

1. if you are a HT you are responsible for hundreds of children's education/dozens of staff
2. if you are a journalist you must produce copy for the paper on time whatever
3. if you work for a large co you might have 1000s of people depending on you to enable them to get their work done.

I don't deny a call centre could be stressful - but there are much more pressured jobs with greater responsibility.

and that's why they earn more.

There are different kinds of stress. Personally, I enjoy the pressure involved in meeting deadlines and reaching high standards. Not only do I enjoy it, but I also get praise for it.

No one enjoys getting shouted at non-stop all day, being continually appraised (but never with a view to improving your pay and conditions), and still not earning enough money to get by.

Yes, there are jobs that involve greater responsibility than working in a call centre, but people generally want responsibility, and enjoy having autonomy, and being able to make decisions. Autonomy is the reward for responsibility. And some well-paid jobs are comparatively easy.

I'm not saying that low paid jobs are THE hardest and THE most stressful. Just that lots of badly paid people work very, very hard too. I know what I'd rather do.