To wonder why these 'apprenticeships' are allowed?

[Remotecontrolduck]

'Apprentice sales assistant'
'Apprentice receptionist'

Both on £2.68ish an hour, full time. Just two examples of jobs I've seen this morning. Doing duties that any other sales assistant or receptionist does by the sound of it, but for less money.

I've very supportive of the concept of apprenticeships, and yes it does cost money to train someone so this can be reflected in wages, but surely this is only neccessary for actual trades, such as plumbing etc. Why on earth does anyone need an apprenticeship in being a receptionist?

It's just a way for companies to get around paying less than minimum wage isn't it. There was so many jobs like this too.

Why is this allowed?

Many NVQ/SVQ apprenticeships get government funding. While some are worthwhile and lead to full time permanent jobs, others are used as a cash cow. E.g 16 weeks assessed work placement on a minimum wage for the 'apprentice' but the Training Provider can draw down 4 figure funding per trainee, so it becomes a never ending churn for profit. I have direct experience in that business, it is what happens.

This thing about under 25s not being able to claim housing benefit is a myth by the way. They can only claim the local housing allowance rate for s room in a shared house and they need a landlord who takes hb, but they can still claim

I don't think it's that simple though.

I "learnt" customer service skills as a volunteer for the local cats home at the age of 12. I then got my first paying job earning peanuts (years before minimum wage) and worked 4 hours a week in a sweet shop when I was 13 - over the course of 3 years, I progressed from cleaning out the empty jars and back cupboards, to serving customers on my own while the owner went for lunch in the pub next door! How many voluntary or paid work opportunities are there for under 16's nowadays?

At 16, I got a job in a High Street name clothing store; I learnt about stock control, display, electronic tills, H&S, card payments, cashing up etc.

School gave me opportunities to; visiting local businesses to ask for donations, running stalls at fetes, welcoming school guests etc. Thats not widespread anymore, either.

I've had 16 year olds in my shop who can't bring themselves to look at the customers. Who freeze when the customer asks them something, and who stand in the doorway preventing customers from entering. I've had to repeatedly remind them about the "no mobiles phones on the shop floor" rule; even though they've had "no mobiles in the classroom" rules for years!

When I was learning, I'd get an earbashing and told to buck my ideas up if I didn't serve quickly enough, chatted to friends or got in my bosses way. That's how I learnt. If I did that to the young workers I've had in my shop, I'd be reported for child cruelty!

Young people have fewer opportunities to learn the basic skills needed in the workplace, and apprenticeships are generally taken up by young people with lower academic attainment, who will have been less likely to be picked as "school ambassadors" or trusted to run the fruit stall, or a fundraising project at school (unfair, but true in the schools I'm familiar with). Couple that with the fact that many teenagers are not encouraged to interact with adults face to face and it can take at least 12 months to get 16/17 year olds to a point where they can actually do a decent job as a sales assistant or receptionist!

at seventeen I was working 20 +hrs in a nursing home on£2.10/hr whilst doing a levels but this was 23 yrs ago ffs and it was a crap wage then!

I've something else to add to this. One of the companies which was paid by the government to recruit, oversee and pay these apprentices has three or four sub businesses under the main umbrella organisation. One organises the recruitment, another does the admin and wages etc.

The companies went bust at Christmas leaving scores of recruitment staff and young apprentices unpaid. Some staff were sacked by text message, other and the apprentices knew nothing of it until they discovered they'd not been paid and discovered that the phone lines to the company had been disconnected. This was not the first time the director of the companies has done this. A previous company had also left staff and youngsters in the lurch.

The government department responsible knew the companies were up shit creek but did nothing about it, despite some Connexions managers warning them and refusing to send apprentices to work with the companies.

The company which failed to pay staff until the shit hit the fan and they were questioned by the press and threatened with legal action took months to pay apprentices. I believe that some staff never got paid at all, and whether all the apprentices did is debatable too.

The apprentices concerned who should have received their qualifications between September and December 2012 didn't receive them and there is still no sign of the awards materialising.

house Sounds awful, but how come the training company was paying the apprentices? I wasn't given that option - they have to be on my payroll....?

I'm sorry to drag this up after so long. I've been meaning to follow up my earlier posts for ages.

I don't know how the training company got to be allowed to pay the wages, all I know is that they did and that they were funded by the SFA to the tune of millions to do it. Or, rather, they should have paid the wages but they didn't. That was the problem!

This story from a Plymouth newspaper is an example of the non payment of youngsters by the training company,
here

This is from F.E. Week and is about the demise of the company which recruited the young people - story here. They told an odd version of the truth when questioned. Shortly after they'd given assurances that everyone would be paid and qualifications would be awarded (they still haven't been) because their sister company was going to continue trading the sister company went down the pan too. The report on that is here.

If it weren't for my apprenticeship as a care assistant for £3.63 an hour I wouldn't be where I am now.

It's crap pay, but it's better than not doing anything at all which is what a lot of people are doing because they can't find paid work.

It leads to a qualification, and it's experience and a reference which means THE WORLD in todays job seeker world.

I looked into doing an apprenticeship this morning. That's how desperate I am for a job, I actually went to apply for it when they're probably expecting 18-ish year olds. I'd be willing to accept £2.68 an hour just to try and improve my job prospects!
As Strumpetron said, it's better than sitting on your arse doing nothing while falling further into depression because you're stuck in the catch 22 situation of having no experience, but not being able to get it ...

Lets be real about this these scams can no way be described as apprentice training,they are about employers gaining access to a massive supply of slave labor at less than half the minimum wage which is by the way also appalling!

Please tell me why anyone should be grateful for being exploited this kind of tragic scheme should be recognized for what it is just another way of getting an employee on the cheap any business that uses this system should be named and shamed!

Feeble excuse for cashing in on these poor youngsters!

Sorry but they do and you are!

Totally agree with you!

Medion arguing with yourself at 3am is not healthy - did you get bitten by the zombie who's thread you resuscitated

YANBU. Apprentices within actual hands on roles like they used to be (decorators, tattooists, builders etc.) are fine - you can't learn the realities in a class room.

Apprentices for 'sales assistants' and 'receptionists' in this economy is really bringing things down. Quote is right - it is just slave labour because people are too lazy to pay a proper wage.

And it puts people off going to college / further education because they know that at the end of it there isn't anything that will have improved. They won't be able to get a job because everything is looking for apprentice to pay tuppence. Which leads to more people on the dole with no qualifications and no experience. Yes any experience is better than none and being an apprentice and gaining skills is better than doing nothing but when they give in and take the apprentice job it then reinforces the government and the employers who are making it possible for this cycle to be happening.

On the other hand ...

My sister is 23 and owns her own Hair Salon. She is just now looking into taking on an apprentice - but she wants an apprentice because she wants somebody that she can train and mould and make into a good, responsible, hard working employee who she can then promote and eventually have as a manager. She figures if she takes them through the entire journey and pays a fair wage, giving bonuses and further training when she can then she will get a better class of employee as they will be more loyal, more hard working and will WANT to stay with her and progress and see it is a career and not just a job.

Admittedly employers don't all see it that way - but in that kind of scenario being an apprentice would be a good thing because it is giving somebody the chance to aim higher, faster than they other wise would be able too.

The exploited apprentices will in around 3 years time be hiring graduates to make tea for them :)

Seriously though some jobs needs to be taught with practical experience to lead to the qualification - traditional jobs like a chippy or plumber, mechanic etc fair enough. Receptionist? Sales assistant? No.

Customer services as well I think is a bit of a cop out as well. I manage 40 people in that role and an interview will tell you whether they are right for that job or not. 12 months on the job training is not justification for paying apprentice wages.

ChinaCup - How can you justify 'Customer Service Apprentice'? A customer service role is a full-time job that needs doing, so pay for it! You don't need an 'apprentise' in something like that, just train them like any coproration would do, it takes a couple of weeks and then the person is good to go.

Training should be at the cost of the company, not at the trainee.

The whole thing is ridiculous and Employemtn agents and their agencies exacerbate the entire situation by condoning and encouraging it.

"I've had 16 year olds in my shop who can't bring themselves to look at the customers. Who freeze when the customer asks them something, and who stand in the doorway preventing customers from entering. I've had to repeatedly remind them about the "no mobiles phones on the shop floor" rule; even though they've had "no mobiles in the classroom" rules for years!"

Are you actually interviewing these 16 year olds?

I work with so many apprentices' and whilst they all have fairly fancy job titles, such as business apprentice, h&s apprentice and do NVQ's, they don't actually do any work worth while. One lad in particular, had to sit next to me to 'keep an eye on me' for, wait for it........ Eight weeks!

Another lad takes the post out three times a day, and not a lot else.

What I have witnessed is cheap labour!

My apprentice was signed off as complete by her assessor on Friday and she will attend her "graduation" to get her certificate next month.
I am SO proud of her. Before she worked for me she had only had a handful of volunteering roles, short term stuff. This was her first "proper job" after leaving school. She now has a qualification worth two A Levels and while she is still a typical angst ridden teenager who likes to see if I will notice that she hasn't taken her earrings out at the start of her shift everyday, she has matured and grown in confidence enormously during her year with us.
She has been paid exactly the same as her non-apprentice colleagues throughout her time with us and will continue to do so as she grows and develops within her role and hopefully works towards a promotion in the next year or two.

Ds1 is on an apprenticeship, electrical mechanical engineering. Hes just completed his first year and is now on 200 a week (was 100)

He was very lucky to get it, they dont come up very often where we are.

He already has a qualification in electrical instillation which was a real help. His employer is able to send him all over the country to fix and test there equipment, which costs him less than it would if he was fully qualified, however he also trusts ds to build knew equiptment that they trial, which ds really enjoys doing.

They also pay him quite a bit more for ovwr time.

Dont know what happened with my spelling! Stupid phone

The apprentices at our work place are paid a low wage but it doubles each year and the company is bound to see them through to the end of their degree and then two years employment which adds up to around 10 years. I don't have a problem with this as the company pays for the uni fees and the apprentices come out with no loans but fully qualified with experience. I would have happily done this instead of my degree. I do however have a big problem with the apprenticeships for making beds and cleaning toilets, these are just slave labour with nothing in it for the apprentice except a thankless job and a bad wage.

Also agree that it CAN work well if proper training is in place and it's been genuinely thought through. Trouble is, too often it's just jumped on by employers who see an opportunity to get staff for next to nothing

An old boss of mine did exactly this with youngsters from some "government training scheme" then had the nerve to complain when they expected to be shown what to do