To wonder why these 'apprenticeships' are allowed?

[Remotecontrolduck]

'Apprentice sales assistant'
'Apprentice receptionist'

Both on £2.68ish an hour, full time. Just two examples of jobs I've seen this morning. Doing duties that any other sales assistant or receptionist does by the sound of it, but for less money.

I've very supportive of the concept of apprenticeships, and yes it does cost money to train someone so this can be reflected in wages, but surely this is only neccessary for actual trades, such as plumbing etc. Why on earth does anyone need an apprenticeship in being a receptionist?

It's just a way for companies to get around paying less than minimum wage isn't it. There was so many jobs like this too.

Why is this allowed?

[Ragwort]

A fair days pay for a fair day work- a lot of these apprentices aren't doing a 'fair day's work' though are they? I work in retail and actually we don't pay our staff at all (Charity sector) but we do offer training and development, many of the young people who want retail experience need huge amounts of support and encouragement to do the most basic tasks. In all honesty it would be easier for me to run the shop on my own but I accept that passing on my experience & skills is part of my role (for which I earn just over minimum wage ).

I agree the 'apprentice wage' sounds horrendous but I don't know what the answer is. I am beginning to sound like my mother's generation when I say 'I don't know what they teach young people at school'

[OldDaddy]

Anyone fancy an apprenticeship in cleaning my house?

[Callani]

I think a big problem is that there's a lot of rather useless qualifications now that get counted as apprenticeships. So whilst it is still worthwhile being paid as an apprentice for a truly skilled job (mechanic, carpenter, dental nurse etc) the problem is that companies can now offer very basic (and cheap) courses and pay apprenticeship wages for entry level jobs (retail, call centres etc).

If you scrapped those fake qualifications, or just restricted the criteria of apprenticeships, then apprenticeships would be better value and would actually be valued again.

As it is, my aunt who got made redundant and has extensive qualifications, was forced to apply for a cleaning apprenticeship and told that she'd lose her benefits if she turned it down. Utterly ridiculous.

[Nomama]

Let me see. The Apprentices I teach are on a very wide range of courses and earn a wide range of £/hour... some get 0 as they are full time students on another course.

NONE of them have both literacy and numeracy skills at Level 2. That is why the Apprenticeship Framework includes them. If your O Level or GCSE is more than 5 years old your resit Functional Skills to brush up your skills.

Three of our lads are on the weirdest and nicest apprenticeship I have seen. They are learning how to clean classic and vintage cars. They are being taught by a man who runs a charity. He cannot afford to pay them but his small group of volunteers are all over 65 and they wanted to pass on their skills. So they jumped through a lot of hoops to get themselves accredited. The 3 doing it this year are delighted and have drummed up lots of support and new apprentices for next year. This despite only being paid about £3 /hour.

You can be as anti and vitriolic and determined to see it all as slave labour and feeding the fat cats as you like, but many of our students love their weird, low paid apprenticeships and really appreciate the skills they are learning and look forward to a future working in an industry they love.

Not all Apprenticeships are the same.

[BarbarianMum]

Hmmn

We have apprentices where I work ,(3rd sector organisation). They are specifically selected from local estates w high levels of unemployment and we offer training in basic land management type work.
They earn a pittance but not one of them is frankly up to a real job right now and some may never be.
However 'simple' the work there are certain basics that make you employable -basic interview skills, a degree of reliability, the ability to self motivate and work without someone standing over you, the ability not to pick fights w your colleagues constantly, to follow basic health and safety requirements reliably. ..
None of these young people would stand a chance in the open jobs market. If not apprentiships then what else is there for then?

[Quinteszilla]

My friends daughter is currently doing an apprenticeship. She is privately educated from a good highly academic 6th form (100% bursary, mum is on benefits) She quit uni because it wasn't for her, it was the wrong course, not leading to what she wanted to do. Hadn't been a smart move for her to do a degree in philosophy, encouraged by her tutors, what for? 2 years of fees down the drain. But, back to the apprenticeship. She is happy, she feels she is learning a valuable skill in a profession that will provide her with work and job security. She is a very bright girl. She just cant afford to muck about on uni courses that will lead no where.

[Ragwort]

Agree Barbarian - it is a sad fact that many people just wouldn't be offered any job.

I currently work with a 25 year old who has never had a job since leaving school, she is doing voluntary work with us but I can't see her ever being offered paid employment - she doesn't have the skills/ability/attitude/common sense. It is very sad, it's all too easy to pontificate about this subject but some people are just unemployable.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

When it's for jobs that don't require lengthy training then it is simply a trick to avoid paying the minimum wage and should be treated as such.

MP is a job you learn as you go along, but I somehow doubt they will be okay with an apprentice wage.

[mrssnodge]

My DS, now 21, started an apprecticeship at 17 , in a factory doing 12 hr shifts of 6am to 6pm, ( also through the bad winter of 2010 having to get up at 5am, to get the early bus to work) Out of 14 apprectices who started, only my Ds and another lad, turned up daily, the rest, dropped out after a few weeks, he was kept on after a year, and now ( although still does 12 hr shirts, and nightshifts) earns a decent wage to buy&run a car and has just moved into his own flat- Some of his friendshave never worked, some went to uni, no job now, no work experience, still at home etc- Im so proud of him for not giving up at the begininng, and whilst factory work is not the career he really wants, its regular wages and and allows him to have a good time, although he may well change paths soon!!

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Out of 14 apprectices who started, only my Ds and another lad, turned up daily ... now earns a decent wage to buy & run a car and has just moved into his own flat

And that sums up a lot of this We all know jobs are scarce and some employers are rubbish, but an attitude of hopelessness helps nobody; of course it's hard, but real effort and commitment still go a long way to help

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I honestly believe the lack of rigor in education can cause poor attitudes. Encouragement's essential, but when league table competition leads to inflated grades and praise for even the shoddiest work, students just aren't prepared for the reality if the world they'll enter all too soon

[ComposHat]

Real apprenticeships have value teaching technical skills in a practical environment, supported by a college placement that leads to a recognised qualification. A lower wage reflects the time and trouble that the employer takes in training that individual. The individual can reasnobly hope to benefit from secure employment at a decent wage once they've qualified.

An 'apprenticeship' in being a shop assistant or a receptionist are in my opinion not in this category. They are low skill, low wage McJobs that don't need advanced training.

The skills needed to answer a phone, operate a till or fold a t-shirt can and should be taught as part of the induction process. All the 'apprentice' shop assistant can look forward to is at best a minimum wage no skill job or in all likelihood, be booted out of the shop or office to make way for the next exploited sucker...sorry apprentice.

[rabbitlady]

It's just a way for companies to get around paying less than minimum wage.

like you said.

[Ragwort]

Wow, Compos - have you actually worked in retail?

I have worked in retail all my life, yes my skills and attitude enabled me to progress to managment eventually but everyone starts off on the shop floor so to speak. My retail career has enabled me to pay off my mortgage in my 40s and take part time work (still in retail ) as I wind down my working life.

What a strange attitude you have - perhaps you have never worked with young school leavers (and yes, I agree with Puzzled here) who really struggle to have the confidence to answer a phone, talk to a customer etc etc.

Hundreds of thousands of people work in retail and there are lots and lots of opportunities for career advancement, you sound as though you don't think a career in retail is something to be proud about ? That reminds me of 'friends' who when I offered their Y9s some retail work experience just turned their noses up as if it wasn't a 'proper job'.

[KatieHopkinsEvilTwin]

The apprenticeship qualification would probably be in Business Administration or Customer Care, the position would be Receptionist. Both very varied courses that cover a lot of bases.

I did it for 45 pounds per week. I think I got an awful lot out of it, of course I would have liked more money but I did get a recognised qualification out of it. I would encourage my children to do it. Its work based training, not a job.

[ComposHat]

Yes I have worked in retail. A till jockey position doesn't take in depth training or anywhere merit an apprenticeship. This is just a device for companies to rip off people in a depressed economic market.

I don't doubt that higher level positions where finance and stock control are positions that require skill and training, but this isn't what is being offered. It is an 'apprentice' sales assistant.

I have no doubt that a career in retail is something to be proud of. But part of that is doing a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, not being stiffed by a greedy employer.

OP could you name and shame these companies so I know not to use their services?

[Nomama]

Compos, do you work with any low achieving teens?

You'd be surprised just how devastating their lack of confidence can be. They know they don't have GCSEs etc, they know they have no skills and they just can't get a job to gain any.

Apprenticeships give them a halfway house route, part work, part college, to improve all aspects of their attitude and aptitude.

One that I know would love to be a till jockey, any hours, any pay. She just wants someone to give her the chance to show she can be relied upon.

Yes, some companies are going to be leaping onto a bandwagon, but that is no reason to take away an entry level starting position that allows low achievers to gain both certification, experience and, most importantly confidence through the carefully scaffolded apprenticeship framework.

[Ragwort]

Compos if you read my earlier post you will see I referred to a 24 year old who has never had a job since leaving school, she volunteers in a charity shop for the experience (not even an apprentice wage) - she would love a 'till jockey' job as you so condescendingly describe it. . The hard truth is that she is unlikely to ever be offered a job.

a fair day's work for a fair day's pay - I made this point before as well, a lot of these low achieving teens aren't actually capable of doing a 'fair day's work for a fair day's pay' - they need a huge amount of help and support, yes even to be a 'till jockey'.

[Nomama]

There's no discussion with some people!

The National Apprenticeship Service will provide AGE 16 to 24 to eligible employers, in respect of qualifying apprentices, with an individual value of £1,500. Employers can be paid ten grants in total during the lifetime of the initiative.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

I was working in a shop when I was 15. Not just on the till, but where you actively try and sell things to customers. There was nothing to learn that couldn't be told you in 20 minutes and I was paid the full wage because I was doing the work.

Oh, you could get better over time at persuading people to buy things they didn't want, and running a shop is another matter entirely, but that's not what this is about. You could do the work from the start.

Something happened in the years since. Either something was put in the water and people really do need advanced tutoring in tying laces or people have fallen for the latest in a series of scams.

No offence to anyone who has a proper NVQ because they were always a good thing, but can I get one of these new ones by taking some kind of exam without doing the apprenticeship? I fancy being a qualified broom task manager, tea pot consultant or door control executive.

[Tweasels]

I work in this area so for once actually know what I'm talking about

Most of you actually have a point some apprenticeships are fantastic! really valuable opportunities with genuine long term prospects. These are mostly in engineering but they do occur in other sectors too.

Some apprenticeships are a waste of time. Often only for 12 months and then the young person is let go and another one comes in. These companies boil my piss.

The real blame probably lies with agencies set up to sell the opportunities to the employers. Employers who have no desire for an apprentice get the idea sold to them with the carrot of the financial incentive offered (the longer the person has been unemployed, the higher the rate.).

Real, decent companies who recognise the added value apprenticeships can bring seek them out themselves and generally pay higher than the minimum wage.

[Nomama]

usualsuspect, YTS was completely different.

Similar pay and similar levels of abuse by some companies. But no education, day release, so the onus was wholly on the employer to provide (and often measure) successful provision.

It seems that none of us who work with Apprentices disagree that some providers need to be boiled in oil, but for a large number of students they are a great way into a career that would otherwise be blocked to them.

Simply demanding to get rid of them would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Ragwort]

There was nothing to learn that couldn't be told you in 20 minutes and I was paid the full wage because I was doing the work.

That may be absolutely true for you Back but you would be amazed at the number of young people who go into retail and haven't got a clue (actually not just young people judging by the 'service' I receive from some shops ).

If you are bright with loads of common sense and a 'can do' attitude then these sorts of jobs are straight forward, I have worked in retail, hospitality, social care and within days weeks have been given more responsibility and left alone to 'get on with it'. However this is just not the case for lots of school leavers - they do need support and training in the most simple of roles.

Sorry, I know that makes me sound very big headed .