To wonder why these 'apprenticeships' are allowed?

[Remotecontrolduck]

'Apprentice sales assistant'
'Apprentice receptionist'

Both on £2.68ish an hour, full time. Just two examples of jobs I've seen this morning. Doing duties that any other sales assistant or receptionist does by the sound of it, but for less money.

I've very supportive of the concept of apprenticeships, and yes it does cost money to train someone so this can be reflected in wages, but surely this is only neccessary for actual trades, such as plumbing etc. Why on earth does anyone need an apprenticeship in being a receptionist?

It's just a way for companies to get around paying less than minimum wage isn't it. There was so many jobs like this too.

Why is this allowed?

[insancerre]

at not working for the money
I work to live, not the other way round

[CardiffUniversityNetballTeam]

We have apprentices at my workplace. However they are paid exactly the same wages as those not completing the apprenticeship scheme. They do exactly the same job as general team members. The only difference being that they are also working towards an NVQ alongside their job role.
I think it's horribly unfair if employers are paying apprentices less than anyone else they would take on for an entry level role.

[AcidNails]

I think it depends on the role and industry. I'm an engineer, and have a bank of apprentices on my team. All are working towards good solid qualifications, some have gone on to degrees funded by us. All apprentices work full time alongside engineers to gain a broad knowledge and skill base, and get their day release for college, study leave before exams etc.

In my industry, the qualifications are a must, so entry level is always really going to be apprentice.

[BrokenSunglasses]

Surely apprentices come below entry level though? Someone with no experience, no employer reference and no qualification. Whereas if you wanted to employ someone at minimum wage, it would be reasonable to expect those things before offering them a job?

[AmberLeaf]

Some of the apprenticeships are ok, but what the hell is an apprentice sales assistant? you really don't need training to be a sales assistant!

Sounds like an excuse to pay sub standard wages but get the same work effort as a fully paid employee.

I second quoteunquote for PM!

[jay55]

I'm sure many of us got paid a normal wage, or one slightly reduced due to our age when we worked in supermarkets and other shops for a Saturday job as teenagers.

I know i also temped as an admin person or receptionist during my breaks from uni, doing the same job as anyone else.

No one needed to complete an apprenticeship for these roles. And certainly not one for slave wages that barely cover transport and lunch.

[bunnybing]

I'm not against them if they do offer training over and above what would normally be offered to someone doing the same as a job. I know someone who started on one with the council - he was about 24, had admin /receptionist skills from voluntary work, but could not get a job.

I hope he was getting some decent training for his less than min wage job.

[soontobeburns]

This sounds very much like the workfare.

6 months work experience with a qualification at the end (admin, stock keeping, gardening etc) for you benefits plus £15 a week and travel paid.

Tbh I would rather do the workfare scheme.

[fuzzpig]

Presumably apprentice sales assistants would do their qualifications in customer service (that's what I did)

[Tabby1963]

My daughter got an apprentice wage £2.50 ph when doing a p/t job at a local hairdressers. While she was grateful to get the job, she saw her friends earning far more and was frustrated. She eventually got a better paid p/t job at a local restaurant, and an even better one when she moved for Uni.

My son got an apprenticeship (4 year) at a large council in Scotland, it pays the minimum wage and includes college too. He earns enough to fund his flat share and he is very happy.

The thing about apprenticeships is that they help you to gain the very necessary experience needed to apply for jobs. Without experience, job hunting is hard because employers prefer candidates with experience. Is it worth short term pain for long term gain? You decide.

[gordyslovesheep]

apprenticeships in many cases are exempt from nmw - but many are full time - not all have day release

[ChinaCupsandSaucers]

nigel I've employed 16 year old holiday staff who within a few weeks were referring to 'us' and 'we' when referring to the business, and also employed experienced, capable workers with decades of experience under their belt who refer to the job as 'just helping out'.

Guess which I'd prefer to employ?

Yes, everyone's in it for the money, but some put more then others into the job - and in my experience, apprentices are more invested because they get added value

[Pollydon]

Yes, YABU. To legally be able to pay the apprenticeship minimum rate the apprentice will be signed up to a nvq\qcf qualification.

[OhDearNigel]

£2.68 v £6.21. Well, it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to guess who you'd rather employ

[claretandamberforever]

In 1991 after leaving school I joined a YTS which paid £29.50 a week. It was a training scheme in a pretend office so not even in a real work environment! Surely the new apprenticeships are just the same as that? You can't get a job without experience and you can't get experience without a job. I think an apprentice reception in a real office is getting more experience than I did in my pretend one

[wickeddevil]

I am sure there are dodgy employers out there. But I wanted to say there are good ones too.
My DS is doing engineering and working towards a BTEC. He started on £100 ow and has had
800 per month since turning 18.
His employers, a small firm have suggested they might also support him to do a degree in future. Not only would he avoid student debt this way, but he will have experience to boot.
Dont write them all off.

[ChinaCupsandSaucers]

nigel unlike a NMW employee, I'm not permitted to leave an apprentice on the premises unsupervised, they can't do the job in its entirety for several months, I have to explain what a staff handbook is, and work through it with them page by page (as with the safety manual etc) and I lose income-generating space to accommodate regular visits from the tutor.
Believe me, it's not a simple £-per-hour calculation; it rarely is in business

[IcedTeaOneSugar]

We have an apprentice at work, he's studying for an NVQ and getting some work/life experience. He wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting a "real" post in our industry straight from school.

If he sticks with it and does well at the end of it he'll have something to put on his CV, a reference, a qualification and a chance of an entry level position.

Our apprentice is supernumerary, we created the post to give someone an opportunity, in fact if you consider the time needed to properly supervise and support him it's not that cheap.

He certainly isn't doing the same work that an experience administrator even on the lowest pay band would be doing.

I suppose what I'm saying is that not all employers exploit this system.

[hermioneweasley]

Apprentice roles aren't always stealing a job from th economy. At my last company budgets were right, but we took on apprentices as they were brilliant value and an extra pair of hands. We wouldn't have created those roles anyway. I woukd say about half of them went on the get perm "proper" roles in the company (all above NMW).

[LittleMissWise]

I've just been looking at our local job centre online. There is an apprentice shop assistant wanted in the local chemist. Now correct me if I am wrong, but I think they are pushing the boundaries here a bit and are using the "apprenticeship" scheme as just cheap labour for a general assistant.

WRT to the attitudes of teens at work, I am going to champion mine them a bit. Both my DC have p/t jobs, DS2(16) works for £4:28 an hour. He is a better worker than the adults he works with in the same role (his supervisor has told him that). He stays late, works harder and faster yet they pay him less than £2 an hour than the rest just because they can.

DS1 (18) works for a clothing retail company. He works hard too, he gets offered all over time because he is reliable, but do you know what? If he does 4 hours overtime he gets paid for 3.75 because it is company policy. We don't even know if that's legal, but he won't make waves because he just wants a bloody job!

I love quoteunquote upthread and wish there were more like her in the world!

[LittleMissWise]

My post makes no sense. DS2 gets paid more than £2 an hour less than those in the same role!

[NiceTabard]

I thought that apprenticeships were intended to train people up in a trade type thing. Stuff like plumber, hairdresser, motor mechanic, chef...

I don't understand how this idea can be stretched to include things like admin and shop work? I worked in admin and in shops when I was young and while obviously you have to be shown how to do it initially, it's not the same as having a skill set like a chef or electrician needs.

I really think this is being misused, if employers are taking people on as apprentices to do entry level work, which is simply not like learning how to be a mechanic or something, it's just common sense and follow the instructions. And then pay them less than it would otherwise cost.

If they were taking people on as apprentices in office based / shop based roles with a really defined skill set and genuine earning potential on qualification - accountant, buyer, IT, that sort of thing, that would be one thing. But an apprenticeship in retail shop floor sales work? Basic admin? They're taking the piss.

[NiceTabard]

YY littlemisswise - if they were looking for an apprentice dispensing chemist that would be a different matter.

Young people these days are fucked aren't they. having to work for a pittance with no employment rights in entry level roles - in my day you went and did them and got paid properly and that was fine.

[northernlurker]

I work in a hospital and effective hospital admin IS a skill actually.

I've employed apprentices for a couple of years now. The wage is awful BUT you get the NVQ and other college training and you get fulltime experience in a full on, interesting environment with me coaching you I see it as part of my job to make sure they go on to a permanent job at a decent wage. So far I have a 100% success rate. I think that apprenticeships can be abused but certainly are not in the organisation I work in. On the contrary our apprentices have been highly valued members of the team. Holiday, sick pay and staff benefits are available to them as for all other staff.

[LittleMissWise]

They most certainly are NiceTabard.

When I left school I went to work as a Dental Nurse. I was paid £49 a week and learnt on the job. In the second year I went to night school and did the course and national certificate, as it was then. When I passed I got a substantial pay rise.

I feel so despondent for our young people. DS1 is waiting to hear back from the Forces, I'm keeping everything crossed he gets in, because at least it is sort of secure. DS2 wants to be a nurse, but there's no guarantee of a job once he finishes Uni (if he gets there). It's so sad for them all. No wonder people say they have got no motivation.