Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To agree with workfare in principal?

706 replies

IAmMiranda · 29/09/2013 11:23

Donning my flame retardant underwear - though note I'm not for the current scheme, but the principal is sensible.

Working for unemployment benefits makes sense to me - provided that the "wage" is fair for the hours and skills. Eg. £90 a week job sellers could equal 15 hours of charity work?

Taking into account disabilities, childcare and other responsibilities I really don't think its unfair to provide people with jobs to earn the equivalent of benefits?

I do think its wrong to line the pockets of corporations, reduce jobs for other workers etc but surely charity work is an option?

I think I've probably missed some huge glaring point but AIBU?

(NOTE: I have previously been in reciept of JSA and would happily have done 15 hours a week and had plenty of time to job search)

OP posts:
TotemPole · 03/10/2013 12:25

Oh dear, I was hoping someone would give advice along the lines of click your heels together and say 'I want a job' 3 times.:(

I am being flexible. I'm applying for jobs that are much lower paid. I'm not ruling anything out.

I'm also applying for unskilled jobs I have experience of before and during uni.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 03/10/2013 12:33

all you need to do is ........ ....... ............ ........... ...... ........... ...... ....... ........ ....... ............ ........ .......... ....... ..... ....... don't give up.

Debs75 · 03/10/2013 12:35

Big Jessie I never said your degree was costing me anything. If you look at the bare costs it is cheaper to send an 18 year old to Uni. They get a loan for fees and living arrangements and then they get no other help off the state. No benefits, housing, child, tax. Nothing they work to fill the gaps or mum and dad help out.

When I go I will have my fees paid by NHS and I will get a loan to cover some other costs but I will also get CTC for my 3 children and my partner will get IS and Carers. We will also get our housing paid.
I am not bashing you in the slightest, I think going back to Uni as a mature student is brilliant as mature students have more to offer but it is clear that an 18 year old at Uni is expected to look after themselves whilst I am lucky that the state will help look after my family

TotemPole · 03/10/2013 12:44

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime, no, not giving up yet.:)

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 12:49

Sorry Debs75- I'm getting so grumpy with this thread -I'm seeing stuff that isn't there.

the rejection e-mails from well-known supermarkets, four months after the applications may also be making me feel extra pernickety about any unintended implication I shouldn't bother with a degree Blush

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 12:56

18 year olds aren't expected to look after themselves. Their parents are expected to support them (for this, student finance looks solely at income of the parents, step-parents, or parents' lodger), and if the parents have a low income, the student gets a grant.

If I had gone to university when I was 18 (instead of being homeless and all that), I would have got a loan for tuition fees (it was lower per year then, so a similar price to current OU fees) and a loan for student housing, but also the maximum grant, as my now husband did, due to low parental income.

I'm going to cost far less, and be liable to pay every penny of it back, than if I had gone after my A-levels.

SugarMouse1 · 03/10/2013 13:16

Offred- no one is saying your children should be punished. But them not having presents, holidays and luxuries isn't punishing them, is it? Many people grow up in poverty and turn out fine! The key is teach them to be grateful and not be jealous of other people.
Whatever your reasons for having 4 children are, I'm afraid to say that the ONE and ONLY person who could have prevented your situation is you.

Did your abuser stop you using contraception, force you to give birth at gunpoint?

Why did you plan a third pregnancy if you already had two anyway? Did you have so much money etc and cope so brilliantly that you thought it would be a great idea? Sorry, but you sound like an immature, irresponsible teenager and you've mainly got yourself to blame for your situation

Marisson546 · 03/10/2013 13:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 13:42

Did your abuser stop you using contraception

Given that stopping the victim accessing contraception is a well-known facet of domestic violence, I'll go with, erm, probably yes...

Darkesteyes · 03/10/2013 13:43

Debs im a carer too But i dont look down on those on JSA and expect them to do workfare.
One of the reasons i no longer post on the Carers UK site is because of this turning on others who have the same or less than ourselves instead of looking towards the top and asking why they have so much

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 13:44

Here's an easy to read wikipedia article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_and_pregnancy

Darkesteyes · 03/10/2013 13:45

Katie Halper
Contraception

70,747g

469L

Why Are Some Men Pulling Out Women's IUDs?

Attacks on women's reproductive freedom don't just come from our courts and politicians. They also come from our bedrooms and partners. Reproductive coercion is abuse. And it happens any time a man tries to control a woman's decision about pregnancy.

An American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists committee wants to help stop it, according to an opinion they published today in the latest issue of Obstetrics & Gynecology. The committee wrote that it doesn't know just how common reproductive coercion is in general, but that "birth control sabotage" was reported by 25% of teen girls with abusive partners and by 15% of women who were physically abused. Some women had their IUD or vaginal contraceptive ring pulled out. Other cases range from rape, to removing a condom during sex, to hiding a woman's birth control. Reproductive coercion often includes trying to impregnate a woman against her will and can include using threats to pressure a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy or, on the other hand, terminate a desired pregnancy.

"Often, it's about taking away choices, taking away freedom, control and self-esteem," says Rebekah Gee, an obstetrician and gynecologist in New Orleans and assistant professor at Louisiana State University, who has studied the problem but did not work on the opinion.

The committee wants to raise awareness about reproductive abuse: "We want to make sure that health care providers are aware that this is something that does go on and that it's a form of abuse," says Veronica Gillispie, an obstetrician and gynecologist at Ochsner Health System, New Orleans.

But they are also encouraging OB/GYNs to ask their patients questions to assess whether reproductive abuse is occurring, educate patients that it does indeed exist, and help patients fight it. OB/GYNs can help by directing their patients to agencies and hotlines like the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233). But they can also take more direct approaches by providing women with contraception that is hard to detect, like IUDs with the removal strings cut or emergency contraceptive pills in unlabeled envelopes.

There is evidence that these measures help reduce the rates of abuse, according to Rebecca Levenson, senior policy analyst at Futures Without Violence, a non-profit advocacy group based in San Francisco. In one small study, reports of reproductive coercion dropped 71% among women who got information and questionnaires about it.

This is a very important step in fighting reproductive coercion and one that deals in the reality of the here and now. Just as important, though, is prevention. Anne Teitelman, an associate professor of nursing at the University of Pennsylvania, and a nurse practitioner, who often hears about sexual and reproductive coercion from her patients agrees. She thinks talking about reproductive coercion is extremely important because, "if we don't ask the questions, often patients don't realize that there's something they can do to change the situation." But she sees prevention programs as the next step that help "both young girls and young boys" avoid abusive relationships.

Darkesteyes · 03/10/2013 13:46

From this link. Its called reproductive coercion.

jezebel.com/5978759/why-are-some-men-pulling-out-womens-iuds

handcream · 03/10/2013 14:19

Darkest - this is complete nonsense. Of course no one is denying that there is domestic violence. There are also many places compared to 30 years ago where women (and men) can go. How many women do you know have had their coils pulled out! 1%, less than 10... complete scare mongering....

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 14:29

handcream you appear to be focusing on a couple of lines at most, as opposed to the entire phenomenon and its extent.

If I was in an abusive relationship, it would be very easy to stop me accessing contraception, actually.

handcream · 03/10/2013 14:32

Its almost like you are looking for women to be 'victims' in life. Not all men are like this. Some women make poor choices again and again, rich or poor. Some dont have the strength to leave a abusive partner. Someone is better than no one.

A close relative stayed with a abusive sometimes violent partner. She nearly tore her family apart by bringing them into it and then fibbing about what had happening. Her poor parents were worried sick, she used to turn up unannounced at her families houses and then go back again and again and lie about things. No children were involved.

In the end for the sake of the family we agreed that we would be there if she decided to leave but it was her choice to stay. Really harsh I know but she was dragging everyone into her choices in life. When she came to stay with us I had a terrible dream that her ex partner turned up with a shot gun (apparently he had one she claims) and shot my 5 year old son dead!

Did we do the right thing. I dont know what else we could have done. It ended when HE decided to end it...

handcream · 03/10/2013 14:35

I really wouldnt be in an abusive relationship. I never have been. I have to be honest. I dont know why women stay with men like that. But they do. There is recognition there are relationships like that and support for those people that need it.

Some wont take it. It doesnt mean its rife.

SugarMouse1 · 03/10/2013 14:39

So abused women have absolutely no opportunity to go to a doctor/ clinic and get the 3 year implant?

Would the partner know if she discreetly put a diaphragm in?

Get contraceptive injections?

TBF, I doubt most men have the bloody know-how to deliberately pull a coil out! How would they know you had one anyway?

SugarMouse1 · 03/10/2013 14:41

Just because a man is abusive does not mean he's stupid.

Why would they want a screaming baby with shitty nappies and sick everywhere and their partner to get fat/stretch marks/ stretched vagina?

If anything, I think an abusive man is probably LESS likely to want children.

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 03/10/2013 14:46

Wow. I cannot believe the spite and venom coming from SugarMouse. I'm astonished.

Dahlen · 03/10/2013 14:54

There is a whole range of contraceptive products designed for women in abusive relationships - contraceptive pills designed to look like something else, coil with strings cut short, etc. It is well known that abusers like to control contraception and women in abusive relationships statistically are more likely to have more children because their access to contraception is controlled.

Some men refuse to wear a condom. An implant can be felt - the fear of which would stop most women. And for women in relationships who have to account for their every movement, getting to the Dr's for an unobtrusive coil, implant or injection can be very difficult to do. Most men would absolutely notice if a woman put in a cap, although that rather misses the point that to put in a cap you need to know you are about to have sex - something which many abused women do not since their wants and desires are neither here nor there.

Pregnant women and mothers of young children are vulnerable. That's why abusers want them pregnant. The shitty nappy/crying baby element doesn't feature for them because they are not the ones who will be dealing with it - that will all be left to the victim. A lot of abuse starts in pregnancy.

There is an awful lot of ignorance about abuse on this thread - not just how it works (the world is full of women who said "I wouldn't put up with that but then did) but at how prevalent it is.

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 15:10

SugarMouse, no doctor would prescribe me anything containing oestrogen, due to previous clinical issues. Any biological daughter or sister of mine would be barred, because it may be genetic. No implant, no mirena, etc.

I have to go to a particular high-risk clinic for my progesterone one, which is held in the evening, because the docotr wanted specialist contraceptive staff to monitor me. It would be very difficult to sneak off there in the evening if I had an abusive partner!

PostBellumBugsy · 03/10/2013 15:11

Blimey, the cul de sacs we go down. Abusive relationships is a whole different subject to workfare.

Dahlen · 03/10/2013 15:16

The thread has got rather lost along the way, hasn't it.

Still, in a way that's interesting and more relevant than it would first appear.

We are being encouraged to believe that most people on welfare (certainly long term) are members of our so-called underclass. In that particular group of people, deprivation and abuse are rife and so very pertinent to the discussion. They are reasons actively preventing people from getting jobs because they make people unemployable.

As soon as you start questioning that and recognise that a lot of people on benefits are normal, hardworking people who just don't have a job, you realise that workfare could be considered a form of punishment...

TheBigJessie · 03/10/2013 15:18

PostBellumBugsy well, we probably wouldn't go down the cul-de-sacs if people didn't try and pick over every aspect of Workfare opponents' lives, in an attempt to paint them as feckless.

Swipe left for the next trending thread