To agree with workfare in principal?

[IAmMiranda]

Donning my flame retardant underwear - though note I'm not for the current scheme, but the principal is sensible.

Working for unemployment benefits makes sense to me - provided that the "wage" is fair for the hours and skills. Eg. £90 a week job sellers could equal 15 hours of charity work?

Taking into account disabilities, childcare and other responsibilities I really don't think its unfair to provide people with jobs to earn the equivalent of benefits?

I do think its wrong to line the pockets of corporations, reduce jobs for other workers etc but surely charity work is an option?

I think I've probably missed some huge glaring point but AIBU?

(NOTE: I have previously been in reciept of JSA and would happily have done 15 hours a week and had plenty of time to job search)

sounds like a fantastic idea - will force some people to actually think about their future and get qualifications accordingly

I'm minded to think that maybe the small sub-set of people moving thousands of miles for work do not reflect the abilities of their own countrymen and women as a whole. Just maybe? As opposed to international moves or poverty improving patience, psychological and physical health, degrees of SN, etc.

Either that, or care homes are employing anyone who will accept a low wage, and standards are slipping lots, and tabloid exposes are forthcoming.

This government are a bunch of sick fuckers.
Lets focus on the sections of society who are the least able to fight back; the sick, the disabled, the unemployed. They must be punished for their weakness.
Meanwhile MP's continue to take this piss with their pay rises, the bankers who caused the damn financial crash in the first place by literally betting on disaster have got off scott free and giant corporations are let off their tax bill.
These policies are neither logical or sane, and are pretty terrible economics. The nations that are the strongest economically have welfare systems that do not come with a side order of shame, but they also (Germany for example) have decent training, and a much more skilled general workforce than we do.
What people here seem to favor is a race to the bottom. The least training, the worst working conditions, no job security, a complicated and humiliating benefit system.
For what? It doesn't make our economy better, but it DOES destroy any kind of social cohesion and morale.
Make a population insecure, threaten them with sanctions for not being able to find work, hold homelessness over their heads and what happens?
Do jobs magically appear? Do the tiny minority of feckless workshy become upstanding members of the community?
This workfare bollocks is akin to pulling the legs off spiders, or torturing cats.
They are doing because they can, just to watch us squirm.
Many on this thread have tried valiantly to fight the ignorance of some of the "hardworking taxpayers" but frankly it seems pointless.
Some people are genuinely just too thick to get that we are all in this together and it may well be them on JSA next year.
Part of me hopes it is.

We could certainly help them to learn the difference between principal and principle for a start. Many CVs are rejected on grounds such as that.

fluffy It's not a case of opinion v lie - if it is true I apologise and as said previously it is distguisting. But I have honestly never know it before, that someone finds themselves in a very temporary position of unempolyment and is forced to do that, but that is what forums are for - you find out what really goes on. My SIL works for the department and I asked her and she said it would never happen - so I can't work out why they have done this to your DD? When I was 18 I was unemployed for 6 months, it is the time a lot of people are when they leave college or not sure what they want / can do - it is a time they should be really supported - three years of not working is a very different matter.

TheBigJessie I'm minded to think that maybe the small sub-set of people moving thousands of miles for work do not reflect the abilities of their own countrymen and women as a whole

yes but I was not comparing the migrant workers with their countrymen. I was comparing them with people in the UK who are unwilling or unable to perform care work.

also migrant works coming here to work as carers are from relatively poor counties - so they are coming here to increase their income. nothing wrong with that.

but UK unemployed people don't get the same increase in income moving between benefits and working in low paid roles so are disincentivised by the system.

workfare after 2 years not working puts that incentive back.

But isn't this new scheme targeted at those that has been unemployed for more than 3 years? Surely if you've been unemployed for that long, you should be given work experience support to get back into paid employment.

Me and DH have been made redundant 5 times between us in the last 10 years. We didn't claim benefits but we did jobs (any jobs) well below what we were used to in terms of skills/experience, to ensure we supported our children, one who has a disability. We had a mortgage to pay also, and no family support to help with childcare etc. I guess it comes to the attitudes you are bought up around. All our parents worked long after retirement, not because they needed to financially, but because they wanted to.

IMO part of the problem is that there are a section of a society that believe that any the kind of work they are able to do in terms of their skills is beneath them, so will quite happily live on benefits for as long as they are allowed too.

"Wonder how unemployed people are going to wait in for things like the gas safety check if they have to go into the job centre every day."

Jesus wept.

This must take the biscuit of all posts. I am astounded that anyone goes to work ever, when, you know, the gasman might call. And, you know, I might have an Amazon parcel coming. Can't go to work. And what about my fridge delivery? You're expecting me to go to work ? Nah.

Apology accepted better. But it is entirely true i'm afraid. We were disgusted too - she is a hard working girl and found the JCs attitude towards her very demoralising. She went there fully expecting help with finding a job in her chosen path and was treated like shite.

Fortunately a couple of weeks after finishing her 4 weeks stint in the stockroom she found herself a job. No help from JC, who repeatedly told her there was nothing for her on their system and that she should expect a further Work Fare placement soon! The company using the Work Fare workers took on another school leaver straight after my DD. It was a girl DD had known at college. So not a one off.

"care home work must be quite physical. I don't want to damage my back"

And here's another one. You might have to touch, old people . Bleerugh. No, I'm not doing that. Foreign people can do it. I've got my back, see, and the gas man may call.

Having actually done care work, unlike many of the pontificating twats on this thread, I would say that it's more a case of unable rather than unwilling. Migrant workers to the UK typically do not have immediate family responsibilities, other than sending money home - they are either single and childless, or they have left their family behind. This is a crucial factor in them being able to undertake retail, service sector or care sector jobs, as pretty much all of them involve shift work and hours that change from one week to another. For a person who has any kind of family ties at all, whether it be aging parents or young children who need childcare in order for the employee to be able to work at all, these jobs are pretty much impossible to do. Plus, they are very low-paid, which yes is a factor. A migrant worker will be able to take such a job, knowing it is not going to be forever because they can cut their living costs to the bone on a temporary basis so that they can send money back home, where it is worth much more there. Someone who has a family to house or who even wants to have a decent standard of living themselves as a single person has other considerations. You are not comparing like with like and it is a massive red herring to say "Well, other people are prepared to do it so it must mean that UK nationals are lazy".

Then something needs to be done to make care home work a more "workable" option.

People have always done shift work - doctors/nurses/factory workers to name but a few.

When night shift positions came up at the major postal sorting office here they were inundated with applicants. Care home groups (with decent wages and terms and conditions) just cannot attract workers.

This is a crucial factor in them being able to undertake retail, service sector or care sector jobs, as pretty much all of them involve shift work and hours that change from one week to another.

Exactly, it's a lot easier if you don't have any care commitments.

It is ridiculous that valuable jobs such as care home work are so low paid.

aging parents or young children who need childcare in order for the employee to be able to work at all, these jobs are pretty much impossible to do

but someone with young children does not need to look for work. some people do make large sacrifices caring for their own elderly relatives. but it is not a major reason for unemployment.

Someone who has a family to house or who even wants to have a decent standard of living themselves as a single person has other considerations

which is true only if benefits are a better financial option than working. i.e. the system disincentivises work.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime, it's over 5 for single parents. If you have 5+ year old you'd still need childcare to cover out of school hours.

Exactly, Wallinson.

totem yes. but FT hours are not expected.

WasteOfTime, it's not that being unemployed is better; it's that if your only responsibility is saving enough money to buy land and build a house in a country where doing so is relatively cheap, then it makes sense to move to a country where jobs pay well relative to your own country. So it makes sense for a migrant worker to take a minimum wage job. A single person in the UK generally does not take work in order to buy a plot of land in Bulgaria.

And if you are doing shift work, you might be needing childcare overnight, or out of normal hours. Just because you are working part-time, doesn't mean you are going to be only working during school hours.

WasteOfTime, care work shifts run 24 hours a day. Someone with children under the age of 12 will have to arrange childcare in order to work them. And they will not be able to arrange that childcare if the shift starts at 6 am, or is overnight or whatever.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime, What about holidays? You can't restrict the search and availability to term time only.

Actually people with young children are expected to work, if they do not have a partner who can support them. When your youngest child turns 5 you are a "jobseeker".
And what Wallison said is bang on.
How do you do shift work if you are a lone parent? If you don't have willing and able bodied grandparents etc you can't.
I am a lone parent, and when I was out of work I went everywhere. I hate care work and retail, but I was desperate and applied for everything. I was offered jobs that were Saturdays and Sundays only, or night shifts.
I dont think people really get just how dire the situation is in a lot of the UK. I am in the North, and would search every day. I remember looking at M and S jobs for my town, and they were only hiring people to do late nights.
I just can't do that. Luckily I found something in the end. I am reasonably well educated and resourceful, with a laptop and printer at home, friends in work with good advice, work experience and only one child. It was damned hard for me, so I can't imagine what it is like for someone less well resourced to get back into work.
These draconian measure the government are taking are NOT to help people. They are to win votes from the kind of clueless, small minded bigots they need to win the next election.

Wallison but buying land in Bulgaria is not relevant to the comparison:

working in the UK v. unemployment benefits in the UK.

(also the EU migrant workers I know have children here.)

Not read the thread yet BUT, I think its a great idea. All the people I know on benefits WORK !!!
I think its revolting of them, taking away from people that really need the money.
I would love to see my scrounging, benefit thief, who lives in a 6 bedroom detached house, picking up litter LOL