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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To speak to the school?

1002 replies

Orchwoid · 17/09/2013 17:47

I've just been to collect my son from his school and he's told me that he won't be cast in his school Christmas play but all the other children will.

I am fumming. I am going to go and speak to his teacher first thing tomorrow morning but I am so angry that I can't work out whether I'm being reasonable or not.

OP posts:
notthefirstagainstthewall · 19/09/2013 10:29

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius Well I'll answer you.

It is obvious to most people that the school play at Christmas is a special one of event.
It takes 5 minutes to knock up a few sentences on the end of the weekly newsletter to ask if anyone doesn't want their child involved.
Easy.

MrsOakenshield · 19/09/2013 10:29

filee - your posts have left me not a little confused. I haven't gone back and reread them so apologies if I get some of this slightly wrong.

Firstly - this is a Nativity play. Not a 'winter celebration' as you have said a couple of times. A Nativity - a Christian play about the birth of Jesus, the Son of God. It is exceptionally religious, no two ways about it.

Of course, most parents aren't all that religious or Christian, but they know that Christianity informs a lot of our culture, traditions, art, literature, and so are happy for their children to learn about it (though they don't want the children indoctrinated, which is of course a different thing altogether). Those who actively don't want their children to take part of course have the right to request that they are excluded, and, like the OP, can do so.

Now, I don't work in a school so perhaps it is possible that teachers should contact parents who have done this to run past all celebrations such as harvest festival, Christmas and Easter* past them. Seems to me like that could take up rather a lot of a teacher's non-existent free time, particularly if they end up in the kind of ludicrous back-and-forth that is happening here. But yes, I guess, in theory, they could.

However, and this is what you seem to be missing - exactly the same should be done by the parent. They should think through, find out for themselves, exactly what would be involved in a request to withdraw their child from religious activities at school. And then put that down in writing - no to religious education and assemblies, yes to Nativity play. But you seem to want to absolve the OP, and indeed any parent who makes this request, of any responsibility for their actions. You say the child's feelings should be thought of - certainly they should, first and foremost by their own parents!

*Easter. That non-Christian celebration that is, globally, far far more important than Christmas. I'm thinking Latin America particularly. The rising of the Son of God. No, that's not important or religious at all. The fact that the early Christian church tacked their celebrations on to existing pagan celebrations doesn't change a thing. Winter and spring solstice aren't Christian, Christmas and Easter are. Is that really so hard to comprehend?

Oh, and finally, if my child (and I hope she does) learns about Eid and Diwali and Hannukah at school, and there is any kind of activity or play involved (I'm afraid my knowledge of these is pathetically sketchy) I certainly wouldn't expect those festivals to be downgraded to allow her to take part.

notthefirstagainstthewall · 19/09/2013 10:34

A Nativity - a Christian play about the birth of Jesus, the Son of God. It is exceptionally religious, no two ways about it.

Seriously? It is factually incorrect for starters and I don't think dancing stars and sheep are anything but entertainment.

filimou · 19/09/2013 10:40

Jesus Mary and Joseph this thread is still going!!!!Grin

cjel · 19/09/2013 10:41

Wild we are not saying go away and be bored. It is the athiest who has excluded herself.

Sallyingforth · 19/09/2013 10:42

OP
As someone said above, this is the beginning of a long relationship with the school. You are not helping your son at all by presenting his mother as being a nuisance who requires constant attention and disrupts the normal organisation of activities.

Also, you may be fuming at the result of your exclusion requirement. But offence works both ways. Your reference to 'God and that shit' is extremely offensive to Christians, Jews, Muslims and others. In some countries (or even may I say in some communities in the UK) it could result in a degree of fuming that could cause you great personal harm.

Please be aware of how your attitude will affect yourself and your son in the future.

IAmNotLouise · 19/09/2013 10:47

Dancing stars aside, it is a retelling of a Christian story that is a basis for a Christian festival. I agree with you that it is different from worship in assembly, it has more in common with taught RE and the celebrations that take place for other religious festivals i.e. Diwali, Eid. However, IME the people who remove their children from worship don't tend to view it as different and would not want their child in either.

The school could have put that note in the newsletter but they weren't necessarily unreasonable in not doing so. Nor were they particularly unreasonable in deciding that this would be what the OP wanted since she had told them she didn't want to be involved in religious stuff. What is unreasonable is the OP fuming rather than just quietly going in to explain that there had been a bit of a misunderstanding.

notthefirstagainstthewall · 19/09/2013 10:47

Luckily she is voicing an opinion on a open forum in the UK.

The idea that religious groups would take violent action against someone for "disrespect" is another reason religion doesn't belong in schools.

cjel · 19/09/2013 10:52

Notthe - or perhaps the very reason we should all learn about each other religions so bigotry can be eradicated.

capticorn1 · 19/09/2013 10:53

Orchwoid, please go and talk to your sons school, by informing the school (by letter) that you do not wish him to be involved in anything religious you may be excluding him from other fun things as well.

Like being part of Easter celebrations (the resurrection of Jesus).

Like day trips to visit other religious places

Like making Indian sweets.

When I was at school I remember one child being left in school the day we visited a Cathedral for an art lesson to do with church architecture (the child's parents decided not to allow the child to go because of the obvious connection to religion),
The child was also not allowed on a day trip to a garrison church as part of a history lesson.

You need to ask what other activities that have a religious connection are planned for this year and you need to decide which activities you want your son to be involved in.

Doing this will help to prevent any future misunderstanding.

filee777 · 19/09/2013 11:00

I've been at work, I've highlighted a number of ways the school could have dealt with this issue sensitively.

I have suggested a number of alternative roles for a child that were sensitive to a parents religious beliefs.

I am not going to type it all again as if people are struggling to read the last 4 posts I wrote, they are going to struggle to read another one.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2013 11:05

Just to correct nicename- RE is the only subject that has to be taught by law and so parents have the right to withdraw their child. The do not have a right to withdraw Maths, French etc
OP was only following her rights- so far so good. Unfortunately the teacher was meant to be psychic and know that she didn't mean the 'fun' parts.

This thread could equally have an irate parent saying 'why are they bothering me?What part of not taking part in 'God shit' don't they understand?' Or 'how dare they try and get him to take part by fudging the issue to find a way to make it acceptable'.

As someone said earlier, the teacher can lose whichever way they do it.

(I know I said that I would go but I have never seen such a strange thread!)

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 19/09/2013 11:06

Notthefirstagainstthewall - I don't think filee was thinking of a note on the newsletter (which would not be hard, I accept), but that the school should have contacted the OP directly. Which brings me back to my point - the OP had been very clear about her wish not to have her child involved in any religious teaching, praying or singing religious songs - and the school (with good reason) decided that this included the Nativity Play - something which does include a fair amount of religion and singing of religious songs.

The OP is a grown-up, who ought to be capable of thinking through the implications of her instructions to the school, and the school has better things to do than to constantly check that she isn't willing to contradict her own stated instructions, so that her child can star in the play.

Really - it is not as if Christmas should have come as a big surprise to her, nor the fact that the school might do something special at Christmas time - and that her own instructions might have led to her child not being included in that 'something special'.

I also have to wonder whether Orchwoid will be withdrawing her child from ALL religious instruction and celebrations. If the school does something for Eid, with special food being brought in, will she want her child included in that. Or is it just Christian 'god shit' that she objects to.

Finally - I note that filee has also said that the Christians don't 'own' Christmas. What bollocks. They do not own the midwinter festival - but Christmas - well, the clue IS in the name, isn't it.

MidniteScribbler · 19/09/2013 11:07

This is where I love the head of our school.

Head: "I have great pleasure in announcing that our school play this year is Grease."
A few parents: "Wah wah, disgusting, inappropriate, wah wah...."
Head: "So don't let your child be in it."
End of discussion.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 19/09/2013 11:13

Wildmeanandfairlyhipkid - I don't think anyone is saying that it is an all-or-nothing approach - I certainly do not believe that. What we are saying is that it is pretty reasonable for the school to abide by the OP's instructions - no RE, no praying, no singing religious songs - and to conclude that the Nativity play would contravene those instructions. Maybe they felt it was better to do that than to risk offending the OP's atheist beliefs.

Again - the OP is an adult who should have thought through her instructions to the school. She could have said that she didn't want her child do do any RE, or to attend the religious portion of assemblies, but was willing for her child to be involved in cultural celebrations. She didn't - that is not the school's fault.

It is also not their fault that she doesn't actually seem to know what she wants the school to do to resolve this. My impression is that she is saying, "Oh no, my child is unhappy because he isn't in the Nativity - I want you to find a solution that makes him happy but doesn't involve any god shit" - ie. dump the Nativity play (that many others love, I expect) and restructure the whole thing around my child - but all she has actually done is ranted at the school because her child is upset, and then turned down their offer to put her child in the play.

filee777 · 19/09/2013 11:14

The Christians don't own Christmas, it is a cultural celebration which is celebrated by many. Just like they don't own roast beef on a Sunday.

nicename · 19/09/2013 11:18

Which culture would that be then?

diddl · 19/09/2013 11:18

"not so far, have stuck the other thread in my watch list though so I don't miss anything"

I've accidentally hidden it & don't know how to "unhide"Blush

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 19/09/2013 11:21

Without Christianity, there would be no Christmas, filee. It is the celebration of the birth of Christ. How the blue blazes is that NOT a Christian feast?

cjel · 19/09/2013 11:26

You can argue all you like filee but you are wrong. Christians do own christmas as I said about 24 hours ago it is CHRIST MASS. christians do not own anything else you may want to call it but Yes they do own CHRIST MASS!!!!!

nicename · 19/09/2013 11:26

And I really hate it when some kid smugly tells everyone else in the class 'of course god doesn't exist, my mummy's says that when were dead were dead and its all just stories made up'.

My ex SiL told my 4 year old niece this and the poor kid was really upset by it. I remember her crying and scribbling over a picture she drew with a black crayon completely obliterating the picture saying 'it's not true, it's lies'.

Ditto Santa and the easter bunny.

filee777 · 19/09/2013 11:29

And you can argue all you want, fact is there has been a feast and a celebration on that day for far longer than there have been Christians.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

It's a cultural tradition dating back much further than Christianity and anyone can celebrate it in anyway they wish.

Sirzy · 19/09/2013 11:30

I am a Christian but happy for my son to learn about othe religions and actively take part in activities relating to other religions - infact it is something that I think is fantastic for all children to experience different faiths.

If I told the school I didn't want him doing anything religious which wasn't based on Christianity then I certainly wouldn't expect them to ask me if he could partake in activities which are linked to other religions. By questioning the choice the parent has made (which is what contacting them would be) then that is disrespectful of the views of the parents.

Sirzy · 19/09/2013 11:31

But the nativity is a religious play and that is what the conversation is about not Christmas is general.

People can and do take part in the nativity without being religious themselves but that doesn't change the fact it is religious just means most people are accepting enough (or don't care enough) to accept that and realise that taking part in a religious event isn't going to convert their child for life.

Dobbiesmum · 19/09/2013 11:33

Well technically Filee is right, The Pagan celebration of Yule was appropriated by early Christians in a very successful attempt to wipe out any other celebrations. It happened with Easter (Eostara) as well. The things we associate with Christmas like Holly, trees and mistletoe all had other meanings in Pagan cultures.
The fact that it is celebrated around the Winter Solstice is pretty relevant, the return of the light equalling the Light of God etc, it's pretty interesting when you look at it properly.
Total tangent, sorry Smile

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